Home > Abusive relationships, Borderline Personality Disorder, divorce, Marriage, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Psychology, Social Commentary > Do Narcissists Feel Remorse? Bernie Madoff says, “F— My Victims”

Do Narcissists Feel Remorse? Bernie Madoff says, “F— My Victims”


New York Magazine is running an article on Bernie Madoff’s life in prison. The piece reports that Madoff unrepentantly declared to fellow inmates, “F— my victims. I carried them for twenty years, and now I’m doing 150 years.” In an excerpt from the NYM piece, one inmate recalls a conversation in which he and Madoff discussed how he took advantage of old ladies:

Pollard thought that taking advantage of old ladies was “kind of fucked up.”

“Well, that’s what I did,” Madoff said matter-of-factly.

“You are going to pay with God,” Pollard warned.

Madoff was unmoved. He was past apologizing. In prison, he crafted his own version of events. From MCC, Madoff explained the trap he was in. “People just kept throwing money at me,” Madoff related to a prison consultant who advised him on how to endure prison life. “Some guy wanted to invest, and if I said no, the guy said, ‘What, I’m not good enough?’ ” One day, Shannon Hay, a drug dealer who lived in the same unit in Butner as Madoff, asked about his crimes. “He told me his side. He took money off of people who were rich and greedy and wanted more,” says Hay, who was released in December. People, in other words, who deserved it.”

My jaw dropped when I read these statements because they so perfectly illustrate what I have long believed: Narcissists/sociopaths do not feel remorse for their hurtful and/or criminal actions and believe that their targets deserve to be screwed. According to Madoff, his clients deserved to be fleeced by him and should be grateful that he “carried them” for 20 years (carried them into bankruptcy and out of retirement, that is). Madoff’s statements also illustrate how narcissists and other scam artist/predators rewrite history in order to be able to live with themselves.

Are You Married to Madoff?

If you are married to a woman with similar traits, she may never explicitly articulate, “Fuck my victim(s)” (a.k.a, you and your children), but this is the fundamental attitude from which she operates. Not only does she not feel bad for her bad behaviors, but she also believes you should be grateful that she makes the time to abuse you.

Narcissists, borderlines and other predatory sociopaths—even if the ones who portray themselves as victimized, fragile “waifs”—view people, including you, as need gratification objects. You aren’t seen as an individual human being with needs, feelings and rights. You are an object to be used at her discretion just like a pair of shoes or a car or a nail file or a punching bag. Inanimate objects don’t complain, which is why your complaints, requests for kindness and affection or your basic expressions of emotions are met with alternating bewilderment and impatience. A shoe doesn’t complain when she wears it too roughly, so it’s unthinkable that you would complain if she treats you too roughly. In fact, who do you think you are to complain about anything she does? You live to serve. Period.

You can’t fix a relationship with someone who doesn’t view you as a human being. You also can’t use reason or the facts to resolve these issues. Just like Madoff, these women are better historical revisionists than the Texas Department of Education. If you can’t even agree on the same reality there’s no fixing the relationship or her. Just like Madoff’s clients, you will rarely see a return on your emotional and financial investments with this kind of woman. They will eventually leave you broke, brokenhearted and just plain broken.

Postscript: I had to Google “prison consultants.” Please follow the link above if you haven’t already. Who knew? A booming business serving white collar criminals. You really can learn something new everyday. Here’s another link from wikiHow on How to Survive in Federal Prison. I’m thinking of doing an adaptation for Shrink4Men.

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Dr Tara J. Palmatier provides confidential, fee-for-service, consultation/coaching services to help both men and women work through their relationship issues via telephone and/or Skype chat. Her practice combines practical advice, support, reality testing and goal-oriented outcomes. Please visit the Shrink4Men Services page for professional inquiries.

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  1. Stefano
    July 20, 2010 at 10:22 am

    Check this out then…MY Ex had me arrested for an alledged abuse which even the Police confirmed I was the abused…She threatened all sorts of stuff like having me “sorted out” and then a few days later sent me a text claiming she loved me dearly and I was the love of her life and soul mate and that she had lost the best friend she had ever known! Sick mind doesn’t even come close and it really is scary the lengths these people will go to.
    I am now complete no contact with new numbers and E mail etc etc but it still makes me wonder about the sick, twisted brains these people have.

  2. michael marcelissen
    July 20, 2010 at 1:20 am

    mine was like i just married the man of my dreams, and my best friend, a week later she was like i dont know if i love you anymore… really?

  3. ozymandias
    July 19, 2010 at 6:43 pm

    buddah :
    The only person that can tell you how it happened is you. Why do you feel the need to get lost in someone’s psyche? At some level there is a narcissist within you – either wanting to be fed, or waiting to feed.
    The way these women suck you in is by telling you you’re God (feeding your narcissist), then they turn into the devil incarnate and you need to feed their narcissism.
    So, if you take time to understand your own narcissist you will begin to trust yourself again.

    This is enlightening stuff. I know that, as a result of everything I’ve been through, I’ve had to have a long hard look at myself and I’ve identified many narcissistic qualities in me. I’ve also identified them in my parents and many, many friends. However, and this is important, there is a world of difference between someone with narcissistic qualities and these freaks of nature with NPD. Isn’t there? Surely everybody has some of these qualities on some level?

  4. Ron
    July 19, 2010 at 3:11 pm

    buddah :The only person that can tell you how it happened is you. Why do you feel the need to get lost in someone’s psyche? At some level there is a narcissist within you – either wanting to be fed, or waiting to feed.
    The way these women suck you in is by telling you you’re God (feeding your narcissist), then they turn into the devil incarnate and you need to feed their narcissism.
    So, if you take time to understand your own narcissist you will begin to trust yourself again.

    I think this is a good insight. Both my XW’s flattered me way beyond what I really was, an average guy in most respects. Yet, I lapped up the adoration and flattery.
    Not sure if it is the “narcissist ” within me, but, it clearly was a willingness to absorb undeserved flattery.
    I think these NPDs seek out people who may have low self estem or low confidence. Their victims are men who may have had difficult childhoods for a variety of reasons. These are , fundamentally, good men, but they have real issues in setting limits and boundaries.
    I think it is crucial that they men who get sucked inot this start looking within, perhaps get therapy, to help find out why we are willing victims and how to take better care of ourselves in the future.

    • Holy Order of Garlic
      July 19, 2010 at 6:25 pm

      Boundaries. So true. It’s so helpful to learn about NPD and BPD traits in another person…yet on the other side (as Buddha dn Ron have pointed out) how do we disarm he internal bomb? (or narcissist within).

      Dr. T has mentioned this in some posts. More articles on this key area would be awesome. Boundaries and internal liberation/understanding.

  5. David
    July 17, 2010 at 2:46 pm

    chester :Mine would vomit verbal bile that I’m embarrassed to say-I put up with-for so long. She would do it quite regularly to all those really close to her. Her other face was syrupy sweet to all she wanted to impress…or get something from. To those she verbally abused, it was because they/we “pushed her buttons”

    Mine would only do it to me, very controlled, like a verbal machine gun, never shouting just thick and fast and I wasnt allwoed to respond or challenge. I too got blamed for “pushing her sensitivity buttons”. yet, if someone came into the room her persona would change instantly, back would come the sweet smilinghappy go lucky person, the snarl and venom quickly kicked under the carpet and Id be left stunned

  6. Stefano
    July 17, 2010 at 2:20 pm

    Hi Michael and akn…Wow you guys really been through it eh? Shame we are not all in same city or I would take you guys for a beer and we could compare war wounds and stories…It is amazing the levels these women will stoop to isn’t it, but stoop they have and as guys we just have to get on with it.

    Seriously though it would be akin to chuckin your love spuds in a lions mouth and flickin his nuts with a wet tea towel to ever think about getting back with these women! I too had no idea they could play the evil games that they play and just like you guys it will be a looooooooong time before I date again…heck if Princess Stefanie of Monaco asked me out on a date then I’m afraid I would decline, politely of course.
    IT does help to know you are not alone and you will find if you ask around in conversation most guys have been stung by a BPD at some point. As a doctor friend of mine recently said “it just amazes me what is happening with women at the moment, I see so many guys in my surgery going through hell and at their wits end.” Do we blame the media? Do we blame upbringing? I don’t have the answers but I do know for me I am happy pedalling this bike for one for a while yet.

    Stay cool guys and try to keep smiling.

    Stefano

  7. michael marcelissen
    July 17, 2010 at 3:16 am

    Oh wow, I know exaclty what you went through. My filed charges of email/phone harassment and we were talking on the phone the day before she went to the police. She was saying I love you etc. I went to jail for 12 hours and she said i was stalker her. I wasnt she was actually stalking me.
    1 month later she wanted to talk to me… this women are nuts.

    thank god for this form…

  8. akn
    July 17, 2010 at 2:44 am

    The very last occassion on which I had anything at all to do with the psycho involved her inviting me to her home at about 18:00 hrs. I declined. She came to my home where I was having dinner with my daughter which was just as well because I had a witness to what unfolded. She demanded that we talk, that we talk in private. I refused to let her in and refused to have any discussion with her except in the doorway to my home where my daughter could see and hear what was said. She retreated down the stairwell, returned, left completely. She returned another four times each time seeking to induce me to speak to her on the street, or sitting in her car, or in the car park at the back of the building. All the time I sensed entrapment so I refused. Then she really popped her cork and, in front of my witness, began clawing at her throat saying that she was going to file charges against me for having attempted to strangle her. WTF. It went on until I simply closed the door. On reflection and discussion with my daughter we went to the local PS and I made a statement and my daughter confirmed what I said. At the end of my statement the cop said straigtht out to me that she had receieved a call about a half hour earlier from someone who refused to identify themselves making allegations and seeking Police opinion about what to do and how to proceed. I had already given the other party’s name and address and phone number and the cop said that she was aware of who it was because the other party had not obscured her home number from caller ID when she had called and spoken to the cop. So I had told my entire story to the cop (a woman) who was able to confirm what was said and she did so without letting on to me about the matter. Good thing I did so in my view. The cop’s advice: change your ph number (which I have done) and call them ASAP if she ever turns up again. She has never turned up again but I am always on modest alert at the possibility. The cop also advised her that it would be difficult for her to portray herself as a victim as she had come to my house.

    On reflection, because this was now a long time ago, my guess is that she was absolutely desperate to put me in the frame as a physical abuser. This would have enabled her to paint herself as a victim to our mutual friends and to whatever other poor bastard was in her sights at the time. Evil, truly evil behaviour.

    Not only have I changed my number but here are other things I do routinely to avoid entrapment: the only people who know where I work are very close and trusted friends who will never casually reveal that information to anyone; I never reveal my hours of work or my presence or absence in the city to anyone except family; I filter my email messsages, have shut down an entire network of friends who are known common associates (big loss that)and I avoid going anywhere that ‘we’ used to go at any time.

    I call this urban exile. I’m rebuilding a life but it will be slow and partial and nothing like what I had. I’ve copped the smear campaign on the chin and simply accepted that there is nothing I can do to counter it except continue living in my usual decent way, with integrity, in the hope that things will turn my way over time.

    All of Dr T’s advice and that of contributors is correct. Once you have figured out that they are somehwere on the BPD/NPD spectrum you just have to shut it down. They cannot change because they are not fully human – they are lizard brains. To them we are simply prey.

    They don’t feel remorse they don’t know what it is.

  9. michael marcelissen
    July 16, 2010 at 5:48 pm

    I think the hardest thing is for me is getting over the lies and betrayal. I will never be able to trust a women ever again. I cant think how someone can look you in the eyes and lie to you.

    • buddah
      July 17, 2010 at 7:10 am

      Michael, read through your posts. The person you can’t trust is yourself.

      All the signs were there with her – lies, deception, dramas, gas-lighting.

      You just didn’t want to see the truth.

      Women are not the problem – the women you’re attracted to are the problem.

      • michael marcelissen
        July 17, 2010 at 6:33 pm

        yup i didnt want to. I thought therapy was working and stuff but it didnt.
        she still blamed me for everything….

      • Holy Order of Garlic
        July 17, 2010 at 6:49 pm

        Buddha & Michael,

        “The person you can’t trust is yourself.”

        The question for me was “how did this happen and how can I feel trust for myself again?”

        Self confidence loss comes from what Dr. T said about becoming “punch drunk” from the ups and downs, mind games, re-traumatizing and bafflement that comes from dealing with someone incapable of remorse.

        In essence..I got lost in her psyche. So now, when I feel temptation to enter into that stuff I need to remind myself of what “getting lost in someone’s psyche” does to my health and self confidence.

        The bottom line for me is: If it hasn’t change..I’m still going to get sick from it. So like everyone else seems to be saying on here…detachment and no contact seems to be the best cure.

        BTW where is Dr. T? lol

        • shrink4men
          July 17, 2010 at 7:00 pm

          Just getting back from a vacation after moving into a new house and a few other big life transitions. May and June were crazy. I’ll have some new stuff ready to go this week. Many apologies for my prolonged absence.

          It was good to unplug for awhile. Thanks for your patience.

          Kind Regards, Dr T

          • Lighthouse
            July 18, 2010 at 5:22 am

            No apologies necessary. It is good to know that prioritizing your own emotional health is your top priority – you wouldn’t be a very good example to us if you didn’t.

            Congratulations on the new house, vacation and your other endeavors. You’ve got to love it when a plan comes together. It sure happens more often once you learn to select collaborative people with whom to attempt it.

            I just assumed you’d gone NO CONTACT with us all.

            ;-)

            Lighthouse

        • buddah
          July 18, 2010 at 6:33 am

          The only person that can tell you how it happened is you. Why do you feel the need to get lost in someone’s psyche? At some level there is a narcissist within you – either wanting to be fed, or waiting to feed.

          The way these women suck you in is by telling you you’re God (feeding your narcissist), then they turn into the devil incarnate and you need to feed their narcissism.

          So, if you take time to understand your own narcissist you will begin to trust yourself again.

          • Holy Order of Garlic
            July 19, 2010 at 7:13 am

            Absolutely! Seeking an illusion of power in a situation of chaos and powerlessness (to change someone). I tried to avoid those unpleasant feelings with the co-dependent actions. Result? Misery.

            I look at it holistically..simply ripping each others energy off…when we could be looking to a more universal source…be it higher power, god or healthy common sense…or voice of wisdom within. So yes…for me …trusting myself means trusting my connection to life…unplugging from the insanity and centering myself.

  10. michael marcelissen
    July 16, 2010 at 4:13 pm

    Old Guy and Stefano. Thanks so much for the support. Ive been racking my brain for the last 10 days trying to figure out why the heck she did all this and how could she. She comes off as a very very attractive women, wants kids and a family life. She says she has morals, etc but Ive concluded that its also such a lie. I started opening up my eyes the second time around and dug deep. I dug somethings I found out when we dated the first time, I would look at how her family was. Her mom has been married 3 times and says she is still having an relationship with her husband bc he provides her money and her daughters what ever she needs. (but they are divorced) its werid. She uses manipulation and other keys to get her way, but then again she comes off as the victim. She had a lot of trama in her life and i am sure things were bad but why would you be still wanting money from a guy who is 20 years older than you and is a very very sick old man with tons of money. He controls everyone by money and manipulation. AFter cristina and I got engaged he was chewing me out that I wasnt good enough for his daughter. If he only knew all the lies, all the affiars she had, all the bad things this girl has done to ppl and her self, he owuldnt be calling her a princess all the time. Thank you guys for reading my post. I am still angry, upset and hurt most of all because I got down on one knee and I thought it was for the last. I feel betrayed. This girl used me, abused me to no end, and made everything my fault. You made me michael you made me do this. aka lieing to me.

    SHe got her breasts enlarged and also started taking photos of her self by a guy in san antonio. She said she would never do anything slutty but I saw some pics and they are bad. She wants to be on tv and she sends these types of pics to get work. SHe said she wanted to be a reported, but no she doesnt. Her mind always wonders. She freaks out and gets made at me for no reasons when I am the most supportive one of them all. She has no mind for her self and her parents tell her how to think and feel.

    I remember she sent me a letter in december of last year, one month to the day she put me in jail for punishment. I didnt meet her of course bc I was told not to see her duh.
    She wrote this long email saying, how could you do this to us and me, if you only did this and this and this, I loved watching you play golf and everthing. I wish you just respected me for a bit and we would be happy together. Um, This time around through therapy I found out that she wa seeing her ex when she wanted this break and me to respect her. what a bad person she is.

    She would support me then she wouldnt. WHen I moved to cali to teach golf I was ok. Then 2 months she contacts me on facebook and it was down hill. She told me she was with no one, hasnt been with anyone and missed me and wanted me and loved me. I left cali for her to try this again. I get back and I find out the truth. SHe was seeing her ex and like 3 other guys on the side. This beautiful, moral girl was doing this kind of crap. Nothing will ever fullfill her empty needs and I deserve a beautiful women inside and out. She is an empty chocolate bunny like my mom says and she will never be happy. SHe might seem happy to the outside weird, but she is not. That is when I feel sorry for herself. I feel sorry that this person who does show sometimes how caring and loving someone is could be like the devil.

    I remember just 2 weeks ago, she would say I love being your fiancee. I never made love with someone so passionatley before and I thought it would be the last person i would have sex with. SHe said michael I am set on you forever. A week later, she had a dream about her ex and was sad. We started fighting a lot bc her rents were starting to be very mean and bashful of us being engaged. I started cashing her lying where she was and little things like that. She said she needed space so i gave it to her for a few days. SHe went out and got shit faced of course. WHen we were in mexico she was forcing me to take 5 second glops of beer to get me wasted with her.
    Her mom is a recovering alacholic and her real dad died of it.

  11. Stefano
    July 16, 2010 at 7:42 am

    Michael. After reading your script above it is obvious that you have a BPD on your hands. YOU MUST STAY AWAY AND STAY NO CONTACT. Never mind facebook or coffee because she is just a friend. Do not kid yourself that you are meeting up just to be friends. Trust me she will reel you in, chew you up again and spit you back out.

    It gets easier the longer you stay away, I am only on 3 weeks and already my life is so much better and my mind is beginning to slow down and relax. The damage these people do to you will take a while to heal and from your writing I can see you are still angry and confused. Stay with us on here and when you feel the need write your feelings and I guarantee one of the good guys on here will help you. Many very wise guys write on here and then of course we have Dr T who don’t forget can help you on a 1 to 1 basis if you feel the need.

    It is hard, it is going to hurt but you can do it and come out the other side wiser, life is a learning curve and we must learn these lessons. Don’t make my mistake of thinking you can fix these women…trust me with all my money, charm and a big shoulder to cry on I could not fix my BPD and she just got worse. This is because when you keep taking them back they figure they can get away with even more.

    Hang in there and remember women are like buses, miss one and another will be along in a minute…trick is to figure out the ones that are safe to get on…sorry Dr T not meant as sexist :-)

  12. Stefano
    July 7, 2010 at 8:42 am

    Thanks guys…I would say be very careful about getting back with these people. I fell for it many times and took her back. It has just got worse and worse and as Dr T says they will see the fact you took them back as a flag they can “get away with even more abuse.” Kirk g don’t ever, ever go back there because it can get nasty and it can end up with you in a Police cell being questioned about alledged abuse. Believe me I have been there and you sit wondering how a hard working respectable guy that used to smile and be happy ended up being treated as a criminal.
    It worked out OK for me because I had evidence of her abuse and a saved answer machine message were she admitted making threats to me. You have to believe these women are not just a nuisance but are very dangerous and again as Dr T says “if they didn’t leave so much devastation in there wake they would be funny.”
    I would say to anyone…read the real life experiences of the guys on here, we are not nasty men, we are not criminals, we have no financial gain in any of this but we have all been through hell and through Gods grace some of use are emerging from the other side and some are taking the bold step to sort it out once and for all. All our personal freedom is at stake here and I wish Gods grace and strength to all involved in the battles and trials at the moment.

    • michael marcelissen
      July 15, 2010 at 9:26 pm

      To Stefano and all. This site as made me feel ok with what has transpired. I was actually on this site last year around sept when my ex fiancee narc broke up with me out of the blue. Everything was great in the beginning. She was super beauitful, witty, felt like I found my best friend.
      She woke up one morning after 6 months and said I dont want this anymore. I move out, find own place. I panic, I was crying, confused, we were going to get engaged. I treated her like a queen. I was there for her when she needed me the most. I was always there.
      When she told me the reason why she broke up with me was bc i didnt rub her back or took her fancing enough i knew something was wrong. She begain to email me saying, baby, i just need some time to figure out me and just respect me and give me space. I did. She came over unexpected on me and yelled at me and made me feel like shit bc I contacted an ex on facebook saying ” hi krystyn, thought of you the other day, hope your well” well, my ex narc went crazy, called me from a starbucks phone from my apt. She threaten me how could you do this, we are fixing things. How dare you contact an ex. I cried, felt so bad for just saying hi.

      a week later, she emails me saying baby i love you cant wait to be with you, etc etc. Thank you for respecting my wishes etc. My friends told me she was playing with me. Well I had enough and told her she was an aweful person, that she deserves a man that beats her. I told her she was a whore and cheated on me. I never said anything bad in my whole life to a girl before. I never yelled, never said anything bad. I just had enough. I was devastated she was playing, I was devstaed she just would walk out. She would say things like all my exs love me and would get back with me. etc etc. Well the day before she went to the police we were talking on the phone. She went to the police and told them she was afraid of her life of me. That i was stalking her. UM. hello you show yup to my apt unannounce. who is the stalker anyway.

      Well I get thrown in jail for harrasement charges that I didnt do. I went for no contact for a month. She started emailing me, stalking me at school to talk to her. I didnt. I didnt show up to starbucks one night after month bc she wanted to talk to me. After I didnt show, she wrote me this email saying god this and god that. Only if I did this etc.

      She is 27 years old. I leave to cali to start my new life. She contacts me in feb on facebook. I finally give in. SHouldnt have. She said she missed me, hasnt been with anyone and anythign and everything she does, reminds her of me. She was like I love you michael, I want to try it agian and I hope the monster doesnt come out. um, hello, you are the monster wack job.
      I move back to texas. We go through therapy. Things are well. I find out she was seeing her ex when she was with me the first time. When she told me she needed space she was telling him I love you. what a sick girl. so many lies and lies.

      She even fooled aorund with an 18 year old guy on a cruise ship. During therapy i find out she went right back to her ex. She said to me I wish you trust me. How could I???? everytime we have a problem you run to him, everytime you have a problem you run. That is why I am insecure women.

      She slaped me, yelled at me and when she was blaming me for something I didnt do I would try to talk to her. she would yell like a 3 year old stop talking, or liar lair liar.
      She has a drinking problem to. She is a pathlogical lier and I found out she was cheating on me again. She would accuse me of being sneaking or shady, or havig a double life. I have learned from this site that they project to ppl what they are doing. She is so so so sick.

      We get engaged in mexico. Things are well I thought. I week later she is like I dont want this or you anymore. She said she had a dream about her ex and made her sad. I figure out that the reaosn why she was sad or whatever is she fucked around on him to. She would say I wish you trusted me like chris and I did. WHy, so you can call him when you need a fuck or when he is there when you need him. You can go on trips, screw around with other guys and he doesnt pick up. UM, no, I want a women who is trustworthy and you are not. I want a women who doesnt lie, cheat, things everything is about her.

      She has said and done things that would make your head spin. Her friends a drug ppl, they have group sex but she swears she doesnt do it. Um yea right… come on i am not born yesterday. She lies where is is all the time. You makde me like michael she would say you make me do this. HOLLY SMOKES.. RED FLAG. Only her mother and myself have seen this devil. Everyone else sees a beautiful outgoing generous women. I have lived with the real devil.
      She blames everyone except for her self and she hates therapy bc its like she is getting backed into a corner when the therapist picks at her for her mistakes.
      We finally break up again and she said to me, if you contact me, i will call the police agian on you. I was so hurt an devastated. She even said your dead to me. WTF…..

      This site really helps me so much knowing how bad she really is and there is so many men out there going through the same thing. I am so thankful getting out. I am so thankful. My self esteem is shot, I still cry. I just cannot believe ppl like this actually walk around this earth.
      I will never go back to it never.

      • July 16, 2010 at 11:22 am

        “I will never go back to it never.”

        I hope you stick to this, Michael, because from what you’ve written, I think you realize that any good times you ever have with this woman will be far otweighed by the pain she’ll bring to your life.

        And that will never change, ragerdless of any promises to the contrary she may make.

        If you ever weaken, just come back here and re-read what you’ve written.

        Good luck and best wishes.

  13. kirk g
    July 7, 2010 at 1:55 am

    great posts stefano, and you too, old guy. my bpd ex i kicked out months ago but tries to act like i’m stalking or harassing her! at the local skating rink, if i walk in and she sees me, she rushes off the skate floor, takes off her skates and takes off! all my friends are like, is she psycho or what? like you guys say, they seem to really believe their own bullshit. my friends tell me that one day she will start talking to me again and we will make up and start screwing again.i’m like, yeah right. then she’ll probably cry rape and my ass is in jail. now she doesn’t have to worry about leaving the rink anymore. they create they own reality and can sometimes pull it off by their tricky deception.

  14. Stefano
    July 6, 2010 at 9:36 am

    Hi All. M Ex really has no idea how abusive she has been. She comes up with gems like “I can’t understand why you have broken off with me and its cruel because I’m out here with no house or anything now.” It seams lost on her that throwing things at me, throwing punches at me and causing damage to my home is the reason I got her out! Her mind is really odd because she genuinely believes that she hasn’t been that bad…I have severed all ties with her but you should have read the stuff she was sending at first. It was all trying to pour the blame on me saying how cruel could a man be that makes someone homeless and have to sleep on her mothers couch. I never even bothered responding and just sat back and remembered ducking punches and objects, it brought a wry smile to my face to think how now I go home and skip through my door instead of tip toe.
    So I guess no they don’t suffer any remorse and simply pass the blame onto you. They make excuses that you provoked them and I honestly believe it is not an act but a genuine belief they have. Scary, really scary! As for me it’s a single life for me, after the abuse and the stress of getting her out I don’t want another person in my life for a very long time. It’s time to find me again and get back to enjoying life.

    • July 6, 2010 at 6:09 pm

      You can only feel remorse if you believe you’ve done something wrong.

      These types never believe that they have done anything wrong or if they have, someone else is to blame.

      I had this experience with my own “mini-Madoff” wife awhile back in respect of a situation where she’d betrayed the trust I’d given to her.

      In her view, “everyone else” knew what was going on in this situation and if I didn’t, it was due to my own stupidity. So of course, it was somehow my own fault.

      The only way “everyone else” would have known what she was doing is if she told them … which was apparently the case while at the same time she led me to believe something different.

      I know that giving her my trust wasn’t, based on my many years of experience with her, likely to work out well for me and doesn’t make me look too bright. Suffice to say there are many more details to the story and I mention it only to illustrate her view of the matter, i.e., if I wasn’t smart enough to realize she was dicking me around, I deserved to be screwed.

      From my own experience, I think everything Dr. T. states in this post is dead-on.

      And everything she and various posters have said re: the BPD/NPD not living in, either by choice or for some other reason, same reality the rest of us do is entirely accurate.

      That’s really all any of us really need to understand … that these personality types do not see the world through the same eyes most of us do and no amount of understanding, empathy, love or rationalization will ever change that.

      If you’re involved with a BPD/NPD individual the best you can hope for is to keep one foot planted in “normal” adult human reality and not be dragged completely into their reality.

      Anyway, Stefano, kudos to you for your handling … or ignoring … of the “poor, poor pitiful me” game she was trying to play.

      I’ve been through this many times myself and fallen for it on more than one occasion.

      What these people don’t get … and what we allow ourselves to be guilted into by them at times … is best illustrated by a story a friend of mine told me years ago about a fellow who was complaining to their supervisor about a less than shining performance review that from their viewpoint the “supervisor had given to them”.

      The supervisor’s response was “You gave it to yourself”.

      Which was quite accurate, considering that the appraisal was made based on the individual’s choices and actions during the work cycle being assessed.

      BPD/NPD types just won’t or can’t accept that their circumstances are a result of their own choices. They seem to have an over-whelming sense of entitlement and an extremely under-whelming sense of personal responsibility for their life choices.

      So, regardless of the fact that actual effort in the relationship might be 95% you and 5% them, when you finally decide enough is enough, they’ll feel you “owe” them something or are “cheating them” in some way.

      They can’t accept that they bear the primary responsibility for destroying the relationship and the primary responsibility for the various bad choices they’ve consistently made in their lives that ended up with them sleeping on their mother’s couch.

    • Lighthouse
      July 7, 2010 at 12:49 pm

      A suggestion for next time…

      A full and complete apology consists of three parts:

      1. THEIR words of apology
      2. A proposal of reparation by THEM for significant harm caused
      3. A proposal of something THEY would do different to ensure no further repetition of the significant harm caused.

      Now I’m not claiming all three are necessary for a one off misdeed or even a significant one off misdeed, but if a pattern of significant misdeeds emerge and you cannot get meaningful change then it is time to move on.

      It is not only your right to defend yourself by walking away, but also your responsibility to yourself.

      Wishing you a better relationship in the future through the kind, assertive use of good boundaries.

      Lighthouse

  15. bunker dweller
    June 27, 2010 at 5:03 pm

    I love you Dr. T. =)

  16. June 24, 2010 at 10:47 pm

    peter :…It falls into the too good to be true category, and in a certain sense these people were begging to be ripped off. \P>

    Peter:

    With all due respect, that could be turned around on someone in an abusive relationship. “She was too good to be true…why didn’t you see past that?” “Why were you so greedy for love / sex that you didn’t give her a second look? You were begging for it….” That’s called victim-blaming, and it doesn’t help anyone.

  17. Targetnomore
    June 15, 2010 at 12:21 am

    I would add that a lot of men need to play Mr. Nice Guy, well after the break up. Fix their stuff, mow their lawn, give them money if they ask for it (nicely or not). If there are children involved, it tends to drag on even longer because Mr. Nice Guy also wants to appear “nice” to the kids.

    This is not a good behavior. Stop it. Take up a more productive hobby like banging your head with a 2×4.

  18. kirk g
    June 11, 2010 at 12:08 am

    thanks for the feedback panel it was well received except from chester. “lookin’ out for a brotha” from the black perspective does not make you a chump or putz, rsther a stand up guy. besides i should be getting a medal for kicking her out of my apartment in two months flat after she started to flip. that’s not a chump, but a man who don’t take no s**t from a bpd pyscho. dcp, sadbunny, mellarll what hit home about your combined points is that these bpd’s exist in a different reality then we do, sort of like putting a gun to the head of a suicide bomber in iraq… no big deal! thanks again for your advice from your combined experience.

  19. sam
    June 10, 2010 at 6:27 pm

    This reminds me of Dr T saying that just being friends is code for not letting go. I think (because I had some of the same feelings) that being upset for the next guy is a thinly disguised way of keeping some sort of connection with her or her business. Think of them as a social tornado. Tornados hurt people and wipe out lives, but THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO STOP THEM. Count yourself lucky for whatever you have left.

  20. June 10, 2010 at 1:47 pm

    What I have found is a pattern of history, with my ex, that she moves into a relationship very quickly..{ often the case of cluster B types } and you believe the lies about the past ex. She plays victim, so badly treated in the past by her ex.. etc.. I look back now and see the way she treated her ex husband and myself, in the same way.. Each time she managed her ex’s out and cheated them out of money/ belongings etc. Each time she cut her boy’s from their lives..{ the children} . Never once said sorry or showed any remorse over the loss of her ex, husband or partner… each time was nasty about it all. It does not matter how civil you try and be.. You are now the focus of her anger and always will be, until the next victim, is done with.. In 18 months I expected my ex to be a bit civil towards me, but if anything she has got worse. You no-longer feed her needs, she has someone new for that. I just count myself lucky I am out of it and I don’t have to deal with her anymore. I hope she does change and treat the next man in her life with respect, but the chance of that must be very slim.

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