About Dr Tara
Dr Tara J.Palmatier began Shrink4Men because she recognized that men who are in abusive relationships in which the perpetrator is a woman do not have the same support resources as their female counterparts. Much of society and support organizations refuse to recognize that men comprise approximately 50% of relational abuse targets or, worse yet, ridicule men who seek help for this reason.
Many men in relationships with abusive women don’t even recognize that what they’re experiencing from their nearest and dearest is abuse. There are many double standards in our society when it come to what is acceptable behavior for men and what is acceptable behavior for women.
Dr Tara holds a PsyD in Clinical Psychology and an MSc in Counseling Psychology. She has over 20 years of experience delivering direct services to diverse populations in a variety of settings. Dr Tara completed and successfully defended her doctoral dissertation, Ce ci n’est pas une these: An applied psychoanalysis of Rene Magritte, in 2004. It examines unresolved childhood bereavement, the effects of a mentally ill mother and creative outcomes in an adult artist. She continues to have an interest in psychology and the arts.
Dr Tara currently publishes the Shrink4Men website, wordpress blog and forum. She specializes in helping men who are trying to end relationships or seeking coping strategies for dealing with their abusive wives, girlfriends or exes, many of whom have been diagnosed with personality disorder or whom they suspect have personality disorders or traits.
The philosophy of Shrink4Men is as follows:
- Abuse is unacceptable from either sex.
- Abuse is unacceptable even when the perpetrator has a personality disorder or other mental illness.
- Tolerating abuse from your wife or girlfriend doesn’t make you a good guy; it makes you a victim. If you remain in the relationship or don’t take steps to stop the abuse once you recognize you’re being abused, manipulated, controlled or terrorized you are enabling your own mistreatment.
- Ending a relationship or a marriage in which you’re actively being emotionally and/or physically abused doesn’t make you a “bad guy”—even if you have children.
- Double standards and inequities in relationships are unhealthy and unacceptable. You shouldn’t have to “take it” or shoulder the entire financial burden because you’re a man.
- Both partners’ needs and feelings are equally important. Both partners come first in a relationship. Both partners need to compromise.
- Allowing yourself to be devalued in a relationship is not okay. Relationships should ultimately be a source of comfort and support not a series of endless hostilities, psychological castration, no-win situations, hoop jumping, emotional withdrawal, transactions and resignation.
When a man is abusive, he’s designated a jerk and we encourage his wife or girlfriend to end the relationship. Abusive men are publicly humiliated, vilified and often imprisoned for their violent behavior. When a woman is abusive, we advise her male target that she’s just emotional, she was abused as child, so he needs to be patient and sensitive to her feelings and stick with her no matter the personal cost. When a woman is violent toward a man in the context of an intimate relationship, it’s still the man who usually gets carted off to jail even when he’s the one with the cuts and bruises.
Dr Tara J. Palmatier is in no way minimizing the legitimate abuse many women suffer in their intimate relationships from men. She is, however, trying to shine the spotlight on the abuse suffered by men who are targets of their female intimate partners and exes, which is just as real and just as painful, if not worse, due to the lack of ready social and personal support.
Private Consultation and Coaching
Shrink4Men Coaching and Consulting Services:
Dr Tara J. Palmatier provides confidential, fee-for-service, consultation/coaching services to help both men and women work through their relationship issues via telephone and/or Skype chat. Her practice combines practical advice, support, reality testing and goal-oriented outcomes. Please visit the Shrink4Men Services page for professional inquiries.
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If you find the information I provide free of charge helpful and valuable on Shrink4Men, please consider making a donation via PayPal to help me maintain the site.
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Hi anon,
First, I’m terribly sorry you’re going through such a painful time. It sounds like you’ve been through and are continuing to go through hell. To answer your question, “Why can’t I leave?” there are several possible reasons.
– Perhaps you’re experiencing a form of Stockholm Syndrome, in which you’ve emotionally bonded with your abuser and view any act of kindness, no matter how small, infrequent and fleeting, as a sign of hope.
– Perhaps, on some level, you still love this woman.
– Perhaps you’re experiencing the regret of wasted time, shame and self-recrimination. For example, “Why did I get involved with this woman in the first place? Why didn’t I leave sooner? How could I let her manipulate me into becoming someone I no longer recognize? What’s the point in ending it now? I’ve already wasted 23 years.
First, it’s never too late to get out of an emotionally abusive relationship with one of these sick women. No matter how much time you’ve already committed to her, every additional day you spend with her cuts away another shred of your soul. Do you want to spend another 23 years like the last 23? These women don’t get better; they only get worse.
Second, it’s no wonder you feel helpless and powerless to leave. That’s what prolonged emotional and psychological abuse does to a person. Your BPD abuser has brainwashed you into believing you’re an incompetent, worthless loser that no other woman would want. That’s bullshit. It’s a projection of her self onto you. She’s the sick, worthless loser.
Every negative thing a BPD/NPD woman makes her partner feel is actually a reflection of her and how she feels about herself. Reject her projections. You don’t have to own them anymore. She only feels good about herself if she can cause you to feel bad about yourself. It’s how she builds her power. Shrug it off. Don’t carry the weight of her pathology.
Third, and most importantly, do due diligence before you leave. BPDs and NPDs view rejection (i.e., impending divorce) as the ultimate act of betrayal and they will be merciless in exacting revenge and punishing you. Don’t settle for a “divorce mill attorney.” No matter what these women may say, they are never good candidates for mediation and amicable settlement. They believe you deserve to suffer for leaving them and they will bleed you dry and try to turn your child(ren) against you overtly and/or covertly.
Before you tell her you want to divorce, talk to an attorney who is experienced in handling divorces with NPD/BPD women—trust me, they’re out there. Lawyers typically refer to these women as “difficult cases” rather than using the DSM terminology of BPD/NPD.
When interviewing attorneys, ask them to explain how they’ve handled difficult cases in the past. Familiarize yourself with your state’s laws on Hostile Aggressive Parenting and Parental Alienation. Line up character witnesses now. Document and save any crazy, hostile emails or other insane, grandiose ramblings. Don’t let her goad you into losing her temper. Do Google searches about this information on the web. Record her outbursts and rages on a tape recorder. Get a copy of your credit report before separating, so she can’t run up bills in your name. Basically, cover all your bases before you tell her you want out.
My heart goes out to you. I know how painful and difficult this situation is. Get support, even if it’s just an online group. From what you wrote, you appear to be in the last stages of contemplating this decision—in other words, you’re nearly “change ready.” Making the final step is probably still too anxiety provoking for you right now. That’s ok. Your next step should be to consult with some attorneys and financial planners. They will be able to allay some of your anxieties by providing you with information. Don’t give your wife a head’s up about any of this. Do it quietly, get everything in order, and brace yourself for the chaos and bile your wife will unleash later. Do your best to detach from the emotionality of the situation. Treat it like a professional career transaction. Reclaim your identity and work your way back to wholeness. You can do it. I’ve seen it happen first hand.
I wish you the best, Jim. Please check back in and let me know how you’re doing.
Kind Regards,
Dr T
Thank You for saving my life. My Wife is bipolar and I thought the way she treats me was because of her illness. I couldn’t figure out why she was abusive all the time not when just having a bipolar episode and it was only directed at me. Verball and physical abuse got worse over the years and it was always my fault that caused her to be that way. I suffer from deep depression ,anxiety and low self esteem I’m on a lot of medications . I thought it was her bipolar illness causing her to be so degrading to me so I would not leave her because of her illness. Now after reading your articles and watching you on YouTube I understand what I will do. Thanks you saved my life. Every night I went to bed hoping I didn’t wake up or I was killed in some kind of accident . Now I’m not abanding a ill Wife, I’m leaving to save my own life.
Thank you very much for this blog. It is very helpful to me and the struggles I’m dealing with in my marriage. You’re a great writer. Thank you so much for this service you’re giving to man-kind. I can’t agree with you more.
You’re welcome, Bryan. I hope you’re able to resolve the issues in your marriage. If not, I wish you the strength to walk away and build a happier and healthier future for yourself.
Kind Regards,
Dr T
I have read some of your articles and find them very facinating.
I have a situation that I would love your feedback on, is that possible?
Hi Francis,
You can post your situation as a comment. For the time being, I’m not doing private consultation. I may eventually set up a practice to do phone and live chat consultation, but I’m not quite there yet. I need to research how to structure it, liability issues, if people have an interest in the service and fees.
However, other readers have been posting their situations and questions as comments. If you’d like to do that, I prefer you omit identifying information of people who are involved.
Kind Regards,
Dr T
It was my pleasure to repost your very informative article. I’m glad that you have addressed the foundation of Parental Alienation. You are correct in the matter is not taken seriously in the main stream or even the judical system. The judical system also aides the alienation with the Title IV-D program. More professionals such as yourself need to be aware of the tragedy that is caused from such disturbing behavior. I was a child caught in the crossfire and it has had life long outcomes. If I can ever help let me know and I will forward your blog to my many contacts. Thank you
Hello Dr T & Vic
I’m sure I’m supposed to be getting over this, but I seem to be writing again.
Definately agree on the friends/family advice, but I didn’t need to give them permission to tell it as they saw it. Each time I mentioned her, exasperated sighs filled the room, they listened but only so they could affirm again how stupid I sounded. Good love can be ‘reasonably’ brutal as well.
I mentioned in an earlier post that I think people are selected. Some of the positive characteristics recognised in me were that I “had a good heart, was responsible, a thinker and a perfectionist”. In other words I would stay until the bitter end to work on the perfect solution. There isn’t one and she isn’t looking for it, but it’s handy that you’ll have a go for a while.
The strong/weak thing was a major part of the relationship, naturally she was incredibly strong . I alternated between being strong or weak, by her interpretation, depending on the purpose. Funnily enough I did once mention the ‘playing with a dying mouse’ analogy to her, as that was how I felt, being thrown from one claw to the next, with no sign of escape.
An ex-partner of hers had been held as the most perfect man, “truly loving, kind and gentle” and one I was challenged to surpass in her affections. Very late in our relationship she told me that she had been physically abused to an extraordinary extent by this man, but had understood his reasons so his position remained intact. I did realise the incredible stupidity of this at the time, but carried on for a while, so the respect for similar characters rings true.
I think I hinted previously that I felt I was being encouraged to ‘join in’ with the aggressive/abusive behaviour, presumably because it would serve to normalise it in the relationship. Perhaps it was to show that I was ‘strong’ as well. I felt uneasy with mentioning this for obvious reasons. As mentioned about “looking in the mirror”, I find it difficult to even think/suggest that she was looking for a more reciprocative approach to events.
I’m off in a minute to meet some new friends. I won’t find a date as I’m astonishingly ugly and inept (they also view self-deprecation as your true view), but I know I won’t think about her for a second and despite having little understanding of their language and them a literal interpretation of mine, nothing I say will be heard as anything other than how it was meant.
Anyway, thank you again for your website. Reading it has helped me, as has posting and your responses. The funny stuff is good as well, must get back to that some time.
Graham
Thanks again for sharing your experiences, Graham. Friends and family can be great for reality checks—especially when we don’t want to hear it, which, of course, is when we most need to hear it!
You’re absolutely right about “being selected.” NPDs and BPDs choose their prey, which is what their “loved ones” are, based on certain characteristics: kind, generous, dependent, submissive, gentle. Being a sweet, kind person with a sympathetic heart is exactly what makes some men vulnerable to these women (the same goes when gender roles are reversed, but I’m writing for men in these situations).
What you describe about her physically abusive ex is textbook as well. These women see men who treat them with kindness as weak and the men who treated them like dirt as “good guys.” It seems crazy, but here’s what you need to remember: NPDs ARE BULLIES.
Bullies only respect, look up to and fear other bullies. They want someone to set boundaries with them and stand up to them, to be strong. Although, what they consider strength, most people would consider intimidation and loutishness. They see people who compromise, who express emotions (that aren’t rage or cruelty) and vulnerability as weak, sniveling and not worthy of them, which means they get to treat you like a human doormat.
Trying to get you to engage in physical abuse, was a manipulation called projective identification. Unconsciously, she wanted to be abused so that she could play the victim, which is a source of power for people like her.
Thanks again, Graham. I’m sure you’re not “astonishingly ugly,” but being involved with a woman like your ex can certainly make you feel that way. Keep commenting. I find your remarks extremely helpful as I’m sure many of the readers do.
Kind Regards,
Dr T
“Bullies only respect, look up to and fear other bullies.”
My “girlfriend” says his dad is a cool guy. I think his dad also has the NPD.
He bullies his wife. Watches sport all day and night and the wife does overwhelmingly most of the work at home, and then gets yelled at…
Both are causing stress to other people. It’s like you are going to have a hearth attack any moment you are with them because you don’t know when they are going to flip, but you know it’s going to happen soon, but when it will it will still freak you out.
Yeah, so my NPD “girlfriend” respects his dad very much. She has praised him to me many times. And I think his dad is an annoying obnoxious man who always has to control every discussion (just like her daughter). When they get together at a dinner table they will practically yell when they “discuss” because they are both loud and they are trying to “be right” by turning the volume up! It may fool some people but it doesn’t fool me. My gf only showed her do the same as her father does after we moved in to live together after 4 years of dating, and it was very confusing to me because I thought she is a nice person. Well, now I know. Sh is just like her father, an annoying loud obnoxious bully, but unlike her father, she will only show that side to you when she is feeling private and comfortable with you. If there are any guests around then she won’t do it – then she will be like she was with me in the first 4 years of our relationship. She brought her nasty side out to me immediately after we had moved to live together.
Dr. T.
I appreciate your rapid reply. Few do, or are able to do that these days. And, of course, your suggestion…no, more like a direct order, to “move on.” I read somewhere that if a person thinks about another person, someone who he/she had a very intense, even traumatic relationship, then they develop a neural pathway in the brain…so, your thoughts immediately/automatically go to your memory that you have of that person. I find that to be quite true as it concerns me. I take Terry with me to bed at night, and she greets me first thing in the morning when I wake up. I do not mean that literally, of course, but, she is so very often on my mind. I even left my home country to be away from her. I thought that would help me, but, if I did not take her with me physically, I most certainly did emotionally. I have photos of her from the time we were together. I have deleted most of them, but, have managed to keep what I consider to be my favorites of her. I have copies hidden all over the place too…in the event I lose the originals. I have them on pen drives, CDs, and other email accts., in storage there. I had many emails too…but, I deleted most of them already. I thought I could get rid of them all, but, for some reason, have not been able to. I see her face in some of the photos and it evokes pity and anger in me, and also the great love I had for her too. I keep thinking that she is going to wind up in some urine smelling institution cared for by those who don`t give a damn about her, and that really bothers me. I have prided myself as being a man who never runs out on those he cares about. Although she does not love me, even though she said she did…I would still help her if she came to me asking for it. She does not deserve my help, but, it is hers for the asking. Reality dictates she never will seek out my help. She doesn`t love either…at least not like most of us do. I am convinced of that. Love defines us as human beings, and she hasn`t a clue about the concept. Her life, to me is a total waste if there is no love in it. And, there is none, except the love that her parents and other family members must still hold for her, even though I am sure it is not even easy for them to feel that way any longer themselves, for she has a way of wearing a person down.
Oh, I know what to do…but, I just cannot seem to be able to get myself to do it. And, I do agree with you…those with PDs seem to cause more havoc to others then they do to themselves. I am living testimony to that fact. They are a destructive lot.
I am not into “victimhood” even though it seems to be the vogue these days. I took a bad hit, and figure I`ll climb out of this eventually. But, it has gone a lot slower then I could have ever imagined. I never knew what I was getting into with Terry, otherwise I would have run from her as if my hair were on fire. She seemed so frail and beaten down when I first met her, and I wanted to “be there for her” when it seemed there were no others. The rest is history. Shite does happen too! A good thing, that turned into a nightmare followed. Her behavior was totally unlike any I have ever witnessed before. I am an analytical person. I look at facts and any evidence around, and try to get to the heart of the matter, with the intention of making things work. There was never any chance of that with Terry. She needs a full time minder…and lots of therapy too. What a pity. I am one of those naive fools who still believes that “love is the answer.” Her future looks like it will be terrible, if it can be based on what has transpired in her past and her present. I see no good for her future. I feel the same about this as if she were my very own daughter, or a long time close friend. Knowing that she more then likely will be institutionalized one day does not sit well with me. It is such a waste and so sad. Then you ask yourself, “why did she happen to me?” What was the purpose of this “exercise?” Dealing with her has nearly destroyed me. Physically and emotionally. She is like a vampire…she can suck all of the joie de vivre out of you. She can, and did, leave me looking and feeling like an empty carcass of a cicada on a tree, to blow in the wind. Such a destructive personality. Such a waste of a human being…if she can be considered to even be one. I have never met one like her before, or since. I am quite grateful for that!
I think it is time to destroy everything that still connects me to her…and, truly “move on.” I see that no matter what I still feel toward her as being any good, or even being helpful. I have heard the last from her, I am sure. I am tired of being one hand clapping. She is the animated dead…but, she is still dead, no matter how much movement she is capable of. Like some describe her type…zombies (robotic too). They are right on the money!
Thanks again for your time and expertise. And, at least at this point in my life, talking about what happened between she and I, was beneficial. I wonder how many more “Terrys” there are in this world. I pity the poor fools who wind up falling in love with them.
My sympathy goes out to Graham too. No one can understand the degree of hurt a person has to deal with unless they have “experienced” first hand people like he and I have. How a mind (like Terry`s) can become so twisted is way beyond my scope to understand. There are tragedies intermingled in all of our lives. That too is a part of the life experience. I have always wanted to know what purpose these tragedies served. That is not always possible, but, still, I do try my best to glean the “whys.” What is the sense of a meaningless/painful exercise in futility without it having a purpose to it? Just some more mind bending stuff to contemplate. Just some more stuff with inadequate answers. My mind is the kind of mind that craves answers and solutions. I like to “fix things”, but, in the case of Terry…that simply was not possible. I finally have to accept that…and stop trying to come up with answers or solutions. I have to say to myself it is time to give up…to quit. If you knew me, you would know that is a hard thing for me to do. I am just not a quitter.
Regards,
Vic
You’re right, Vic. Loving an abusive personality can definitely cause a trauma response—just like going through a catastrophic event like a hurricane or the Vietnam War. Here’s some more advice: Stop worrying about this woman’s future and invest in your own. To hell with her. You can’t save someone who doesn’t want to be saved, much less someone who doesn’t believe they have a problem. The only person you can save is yourself. Wanting to “save,” help, or take care of Terry is part of the fantasy of still wanting to be with this woman. It ain’t gonna happen.
The world is full of these folks. It’s sad, but true. They have different hard wiring. They are predators. People need to quit romanticizing them. No “white knight” or “Sister Helen Preejan” (Dead Man Walking) is going to rescue or break through to them. For women like Terry, people are there to be used and toyed with like a half dead mouse; nothing more, nothing less.
Set up a plan for yourself. When you find yourself ruminating about her go to the gym, clean out the garage, or go have coffee with a friend—but don’t talk about her with your friends and family. Get your friends and family to help. When you start talking about her asking, “Why? Why? Why?” Give them permission to say, “Vic, we don’t want to hear about this woman anymore.” Trust me, they don’t. Ask them to direct you to a positive topic like what you’re doing that’s good for you, sports, or going out on a date with a new woman. Get rid of your thumb drives and discs with her images. Purge her from your life.
Holding onto and looking at that stuff just keeps the trauma fresh. Many people who survive a trauma get stuck in replaying the events, verbally regurgitating them over and over and over again. At first, you have to let the traumatized person get this out, but then it has to stop. The constant replay becomes a mental re-traumatization and you become a walking zombie murmuring, “Terry, Terry, Terry.”
What comes next is focusing on your feelings. Not your feelings about Terry. Not about how “sorry you are for her” and how you want to help her. Bullshit. My hunch is your pissed off, outraged, enraged, angry, hurt, rejected, ashamed for having been played, not feeling good enough, and broken—and you have every right to be. Work through these feelings. Heal from them and then move on.
I realize what I’ve written may seem harsh, but I strongly encourage you to ask your friends to or find a therapist to exercise some tough love with you. Do you want the rest of your life to be determined by the 2 years you spent with this woman?
Kind Regards,
Dr T
Hello Vic & Dr T
I was very lucky in that I was offered a career opportunity in another country, which instantly gave me an awful lot of other things to think about and do. I slip a little sometimes, but the realisation that you’ve forgotten to think about it for a few days or a week, is reassuring.
I would like to know if she knew what she was doing. So why do I want to know? If I’m interested just to prove that I’m right (to myself, because nobody else cares) then that is entirely pointless and selfish. I won’t speak to her again and had told her very clearly what had happened from my point of view, so she has all the information if she needs it.
I had tried to help, but there was nothing wrong, even when she lay in a ball crying for no reason, she didn’t want to talk about it, rose strong again and I knew to expect a surprise later on. To admit she has a problem would invalidate many memories or interpretations of her life, so is unlikely to happen. She may be able to see it and she may not. In the end it doesn’t matter.
It’s difficult, you are in love with an amazing woman and this horrible black mess crashes into you every now and then that only you can see. After a while you learn to blame the black mess. In the end you essentially allow them to keep the identity they always claimed for themselves as the other things they don’t remember or were caused by you or others. Then you face the problem of having left the beautiful person who did nothing but ‘love’ you.
I realised that it wasn’t all down to some magical force taking over, things were planned, reactions were tested, patterns emerged, there were signs all over the place. It occured to me quite early on that in my home things were always great, in hers progressively worse. When I asked her to marry me, the problems transferred to my home, as she presumably then felt powerful there also. So there is judgement and intent. I was put through it on purpose. Why do I want to be with this woman?
Afterwards, someone told me the main problem I had was that I had to admit that I’d been used. That this person wasn’t really interested in me being happy, but could get something from me and was interested in that. So if it’s just pride that keeps me looking for a reason, then that’s a little bit silly. Some people just aren’t very nice and I fell for it. I remember she once told me that she believed personality was set in early childhood and you essentially can’t change it. So that is your answer from the expert.
Graham
Thanks for sharing your experience with your ex, Graham. I appreciate it very much.
You’re right. The “why” of these women’s behaviors ultimately doesn’t matter. Intention doesn’t negate consequence. At the end of a relationship with a BPD/NPD, many people wonder, “What if I’d done this differently? What if I’d said that? Does she think about me? Does she realize what she’s done? How could I have been more loving?”
The turning point comes when you realize:
1) It doesn’t matter what you did or didn’t do.
2) It doesn’t matter what you said or didn’t say.
3) It doesn’t matter if she still thinks about you.
4) The more caring, loving, and nicely you treat people like this, the worse they treat you.
If you’re abusive and controlling toward them, they respect you and seem to respond to it better than kindness. I DO NOT recommend this tack if you want to be able to look in the mirror without self-loathing.
It’s hard to reconcile that the mess and the woman who’s periodically sweet and lovely are the one and the same, but they are. It’s supremely unfair that many of these people get to go blithely through life, steamrolling others without any awareness. Meanwhile, they leave a trail of damaged and hurt people in their wake. This is why it doesn’t pay to have sympathy for or try to help these people. They view sympathy and kindness in others as weakness. It’s an invitation for them to take advantage of and hurt you. These people are emotional predators of the first order.
Thanks again, Graham. Your comment is evocative and helpful.
Kind Regards,
Dr T
Just click on “view Vic`s gallery” then on the photo with the caption that says, “******** Sucks.”
I didn`t realize that you would first moderate any message sent to you before posting it. I didn`t want any information being posted at this point. Just wanted you to take a look at what I would like you to. If you don`t feel comfortable doing this, or, are concerned about possible legal problems, and don`t wish to comment, I most certainly will understand.
I am tempted to post the same link on something like craigslist.orq, as I don`t feel she should get away with the way she treated me. But, in reality, just being her is more then enough punishment for her. Then again…and this will probably make you cringe…no matter what she did, I still want to help her. If you read what I wrote, you`ll know why. You may not accept I still love her, but, that does not alter the fact that I still do. I have not had any face to face, or telephonic communication with her. She has not bothered to contact me since I told her that I was finished with her over 2 years ago. She seems to be okay not having me in her life. Wish I could say the same about her! She offers nothing but misery. Yet, for some unknown reason, I think she can be salvaged.
I look forward to hearing back from you. Oh, it seems there are sites on the subject of PDs forming up every day. How interesting and telling is that! I like your site. I like the way you tell things…nothing flowery. Right to the heart of the matter. What I have read so far tied right in what I learned on my own from my dealings with Terry. It is uncanny, as your words seem to match mine in so many ways. My knowledge was gained from personal observation, and then later on, by reading all that I could on the topic. Pity about people being like this though. Terry has a triple whammy working for her. Tough break. I met her when she was 36. She`ll be 41 this coming July. A total waste of a human being…if she were truly a human being, which she doesn`t seem to be at all. I don`t know what you know about MRKH, if anything. But, you can go to mrkh.org and find out many things there. Based on this alone, I tend to be forgiving of her ways…not completely, mind you…but, to some extent. The MRKH can be quite traumatic for a young girl to find out that she has. I never mentioned this in the story I wrote about her. I have no problem with that part of her…but, sure as hell do as it relates to the other problems she has. Terry had a surgery to “create” a neo vagina. Can you imagine if one of her school chums found out about her condition back then? They could have destroyed her via ridicule. Now, she is the one doing the destroying and doesn`t seem to even realize it.
V.
Hi Vic,
I removed links and last names before approving your comments. Wow, you seem to have gone through an extremely painful time of it with Terry. Sometimes I wonder if the Cluster B personality disorders are more maddening and traumatic for the people who love them than for the person with the disorder(s). I think they are. Personality disordered people seem blissfully ignorant of their issues—nothing is ever their fault. And, if they are able to acknowledge they have “issues,” it’s only for a fleeting second and then they retreat back to their distorted wall of denial, blame, and dubious victimhood.
I didn’t have a chance to read through everything you’ve written on the link you shared. It seems you’re still under this woman’s Axis II spell after 2 years. I could go on and on about how horrible she is, how sick she is (by your description). It’s important to do this in this initial stages of the recovery process from a relationship with a NPD/BPD. You have a right to feel angry about how she mistreated and abused you, but at some point you have to let it go and move on. Vic, you have to move on. If you don’t, then you’re allowing this woman continue to control you.
The best revenge is to take away Terry or any NPD’s/BPD’s power. Power is the control they exert over you, which is built on their ability to manipulate and hurt you. Take back your power and mentally reduce this woman to the insignificant soul-less predator she is. You’re never going to find peace and happiness if you continue to dwell on this woman, replaying your relationship, and torturing yourself wondering what she’s doing now, if she ever thinks about you, if she feels remorse, or if she ever loved you. She doesn’t love you. These people aren’t capable of love, at least not as most of us understand it.
I don’t know you, so can’t give you informed recommendations. However, by the link you sent, you don’t seem to be working toward letting this go. I strongly encourage you to find other ways to occupy your time. This is just going to keep you stuck. You hold the keys to your own cage. Unlock the door, step outside, and don’t look back.
Bryce, Graham, and other readers, can you offer any advice to Vic on how to break the spell of these soul-killing, spirit breaking “enchantresses?” How did you move on once you got out?
Thanks for reading and sharing your story, Vic. I wish you peace. If I can be of assistance via information, please let me know.
Kind Regards,
Dr T
I don`t know if you will give out an email address with which I would send you a link of something I have put together re: a woman with NPD and SPD. She is dealing with a physical issue too. It is called MRKH. Her plate has been piled high with bad karma, it seems. I have been reading up on all the things I mentioned here, and it is as if it is a road map of her behavior and life. As they say, “if it quacks like a duck.” She is quacking off any known scale, with what bedevils her. If you will give me an email address to send the link to, I will.
I can be reached at **************.
V.
Dear Dr T
Thank you for your response. Definately an anomaly. I’ve been fortunate otherwise and never faced anyone treating me in that way. I was overwhelmed by the ‘love’ and adoration being shown at first and everything in the relationship was wonderful, although being honest I did ignore or rationalise some things I felt uneasy with.
Not being used to anything like it I was simply confused and just wanted to make things better. I knew deep down what was happening was wrong and not my fault, but when the next wave of love came it was all forgotten.
I think it was more a case of me being sought. One female friend has since told me that I am easy to manipulate and too eager to please people that I like/love (normally a good thing). Perhaps a little naive as well.
I could see someone who was clearly in an awful lot of pain and I seemed to be able to provide the answer at times. I just wanted to do it all the time and couldn’t believe that someone would behave in that way on purpose so started to look to myself for answers. I’m not stupid but she was very intelligent and able to justify it all in some way most of the time.
I was always very calm when any anger or confrontation arose and she remarked seemingly with confusion on how different I was to previous partners. My natural instinct to walk away from confrontation, or to stay calm at least, was commended at first, but later interpreted as a sign of not ‘being real’. I laughed the few times she became physical towards the end, probably a nervous release, but this only served to anger her more. This was the point that I became very worried about where things were going and knew I had to do something. I never used to respond to the emotional abuse, except by reasoned explanation of how I saw things. I didn’t think it was effecting me at the time, but have since realised that it obviously did.
In the end the behaviour and subsequent explanations had just became far too unreconcileable for me to justify to others any longer and I felt the stupidity in trying to explain why I wanted to be with her. Ultimately, it was talking to friends, mainly women who seem to be very aware of personalities like this, that helped me get out. Luckily we lived in seperate homes, some distance apart, so in practical terms it was easy to seperate, although when the nice face went on again at the end, very difficult emotionally. I’m obviously not over it, as you can tell from the need to post this. I listened to a late night radio phone-in about abused men last year and was amazed by the number of men who had sneaked into another room to call and explained that they would have to put the ‘phone down if their wife/girlfriend stirred. That was the future I could see.
Keep up the good work.
Graham
Graham,
your situation with your BPExgf sounds as though we must have dated the same girl.
She swooped in quickly, made you feel like a ‘hero’ for saving her from “all the pain of her childhood”. She had little ailments that tendered to your sympathies. At first, you could do no wrong, she immersed herself in you and you in her, then slowly devalued you through innuendo, as time went on, right? You began to feel yourself get lost in the relationship, as though your feelings were discounted or no longer existed? Your perspective was not respected, feelings discounted and you became objectified? You felt that she didn’t ‘get it’ when it came to empathy, explained it away to yourself as an anomoly? When things returned good, for awhile, you would ‘project’ your ideals of her ‘good’ self , somehow in order to quell that nagging feeling inside you that ‘something just ain’t right’ with the situation? Would the situation be further confuse due to the giving, nice things she would do to counter the soul-sucking moments, right? Would she swing from one extreme to the other in a matter of hours, have panic attacks for no reason or spiral out of control and project her moods back onto you? You began to blame yourself, ask yourself if it was something you did, that caused it, then began to allow her to place the blame on you? Did she try to get you into counseling and persuade you that it was you, that had the the issues that were causing the relationship to take a turn for the worse? Did it seem to make no sense to you, whatsover. did you quickly fall into a realm of ‘learned helplessness’ where you felt you could not sway the outcome, no matter how hard you tried? If you put the ball back into her court, did she argue, project and manipulate her way out of having to be responsible for her crazy-making and sudden changes of heart and mind? Did you feel like an object when she’d ‘triangulate’ her exe’s and their family members, into your relationship? Did she take little or no accountability for her actions and expect you to be the ‘bad guy’ for them? Did she create problems, when none should have existed? Did she have mercurial intimacy issues, love you one minute (literally) then be upset and angry with you the next? Did she exude this ‘false’ self to the rest of the world, of ‘having it all together’-good job, nice things, politically saavy, artistic, blah blah’, then come home and ‘lose it’ over some small, trivial issue, throwing a tantrum like a 10 year old girl? Sadly, was it this 10 year old girl that you thought you were trying to ‘save’ from herself? Were you in a perpetual state of confusion as to why this was happening, how a woman like this could be so ‘together’ on the exterior and so ‘broken’ on the interior? Did she have delusions of grandeur, think she was the smartest ‘this and that’ ever in her profession, then come home and have the most difficult time say, making pasta for dinner? Did she come on strong, try to sweep you into her world, flatter your ego and feed your healthy narcissism until you were ready to be lulled into a sense of easy complacency only to have the rug pulled out from under you when she was ‘comfortable’ she had her meathooks in you?
If any of this rings a bell, then welcome to your first experience with an NPD/BPD girlfriend. They leave you feeling drained and used, I am sure. I should be the one to talk, as I did exactly what I am telling you not to do, but lick your wounds, admit you got into something way over your head and that you didn’t cause, cannot cure, cannot control and NEVER, EVER blame yourself, as hard as it is to do, because that is exactly what she wants you to do, in order to remain in denial of that fact that she blew another perfectly good chance at a healthy, loving relationship, down the toilet. IMHO, the better part of them knows what they are doing and wish they couldn’t, so the projection and denial is a supreme ego defense mechanism, (perhaps, I don’t know-I am no expert) but due to the ‘personality disorder’ being just what the name indicates, they cannot help themselves. Instead, they move on rather than face their inner demons and leave a wake of emotional carnage in their tracks. If that is something to be proud of, then the devil has all the best tunes and you must’ve heard one or two in your time with the BPD/NPDxgf I will give the benefit of the doubt to them and pity their sad existence. Imagine having to live inside that head of theirs? Unfortunately for we emotionally ‘sane’ folks out here, we have not built up the defense mechanisms in our hearts that those with BPD/NPD have, in order to psychologically and emotionally survive this kind of incessant, daily trauma, so when the relationship ends, it hurts us even more. With them, the denial and blame is all part of placing another ‘notch in their belts’ then the black and white part comes, where you are shut out so they don’t have to look at their past, since none of them ever seem to have the ability to introspect and learn from it. To them, it is easy to move on rather than to say they are sorry. to them, they were the victims. What a crock, this denial they live in, claiming you betrayed them by not putting up with their abuse, that they claimed you were creating and to which they were unwilling to be unaware of or take even an pinch of responsibility for? the major irony of all this, is my BPDxgf was attending shrinks and counselors when we met (she never indicated what for), yet in the end, I was the one that needed counselors, I was the one that was sick, I was the one that blah blah blah….good thing my shrink gave me a clean bill of mental health or A sick person, intelligent enough to persuade you that you are the sick one, who is attending counselors themselves…Now there is logic for you eh?
Put some distance between yourself and this Machiavellian Masquerade of a relationship so you can see the forest through the trees. Sometimes, when you are so steeped in the comedy-tragedy-opera that became your so called ‘relationship’ it is hard to gain an objective perspective. It takes time to realize you were ‘duped’ by someone like this and the saddest thing is you walk away from it wondering if their duping was intentional, or not. It certainly feels like it.
BPD/NPD’s have a wonderful way of playing on your ideals of what a good relationship should be, and at first, mimick it. They fool you because they allow you to ‘fall in love’ with an ideal that you created and to which they fed into…only to suddenly flip the switch on you, nullifying all that you thought you both believed in, leaving you dazed and confused.
I hope your wounds heal quickly and that you realize, you are not alone, out here in all of this. Date someone else, look for the ‘red flags’ in anyone else you might meet, and follow your instincts. Sometimes we let our altruistic hearts rule our gut instincts and this can get us into serious trouble, especially since climbing out of the wreckage of a BPD/NPD relationship is so much harder than ‘normal’ relationships. You may never get closure ( I didn’t) so don’t expect it. Lack of closure is simply another BPD control trick to keep you feeding the sadly twisted version of a Fruedian ‘ID’ run amok and thrust onto you. Yes, easier said than done, but in the end, you will get your self back to the guy you were before this whole disaster called a relationship started, and understand things were not what your heart told you they were.
G man,
I read your post and it cracked me up with relief.
Clearly you know what I’ve gone through, which was only last Thanksgiving so it’s still somewhat fresh.
Do me a favor. Send me an email will ya? Love to talk to you about all this shit.
davidmarkdannov@yahoo.com
Hi G-Man, As I read your story I felt that I dated this woman’s twin brother. I was in a very brief relationship with a BPD/NPD man who did everything you mentioned above and more. While I ended it after two months, getting over the subtle damage he inflicted took a little longer than I thought. I had to go through a release process that included the anger and frustration with someone who I now realize is just simply operating on a different mental plane than the rest of the world (or on the same plane as others like him). And I had to give myself closure as I was never going to get it from him (he still calls occasionally, after 3 years, but I ignore him).
Now I can think about the relationship and see the value in it for me (reading Trapped in the Mirror helped). Don’t think the wounds will heal without conscious effort and the ultimate realization that it is not about you–it never is with NPD people, it’s always about them.
I am still altruistic but very careful with whom I share it and stay away from men with whom the red flags appear. It just isn’t worth my time and energy to be the giver to someone who will never be willing to give back to me.
While this forum features stories from men, I want to share that women go through this too and it hurts just as much.
Amazing post, Its so sad that BPD is so devastating. I looked at gf as a little girl trapped in a beautiful womans body and tried to help her, but things just kept getting worse. This site has been such a help for me, as I now know Im not alone. I could tell story after unbelievable story about this woman and you described her to a T without specifying incidents. Very good, thanks
GiMan, excellent! Unfortunately for me and my 20 month fiance’ I was wiped out financially and emotionally. They as she did, may create a world inside of you where none existed, take full credit for improving you – your looks, your views of the world, your ability to love a greater love and claim to have you be someone you always should have been. With her help she did try to do all that, after I was sucked dry, of course she makes no claims to have destroyed us but placed it all on my whacky, nutty, sick mind that needed intense therapy. They create, then destroy.
Same here, beatento death!
My pleasure. IF you have an interest, maybe you can give some personal advice on how to deal with some men’s issues, such as parental alienation – how can a parent deal effective with a child to try and overcome these issue, how can a parent deal with a hostile passive aggressive former spouse, how can a new single father deal with his children in a positive way when dealing with a parent that is poisoning the children.
There are so many issues that don’t have a good, qualified source to give some very high level general ideas and discussion to better the situation.
WE’d love to have you as a guest on our blog with comments to help these hurting men. WashingtonSharedParenting.com or USSharedParenting.com.
Trust me, you are making a difference in the lives of people – what could be more personally satisfying! Your comments share the wealth, after all, your health is your wealth, and if we can keep these male victims healthy mentally, they are wealthy and able to share that wealth with a new generation of vulnerable children that are not protected by the courts, contrary to the belief of many.
Thanks again!
BTW, there are many famous artists that work under a different name. Those that are important to them know their true identify. Your doing the right thing for our career and safety.
Hi again, Joel. Wow. I’m definitely flattered and a little speechless. All the topics you mention in your comment are super important and I have experience with them. They’re all on my TWAASFD list (To Write About At Some Future Date)–it’s a long list. There are so many levels and paths to the central issue. I’m trying to untangle it for myself and others through my writing.
Right now, I’m in the middle of working on something for my paying gig, but wanted to respond to you as quickly as possible. Let me do some research on your organization. Then may I contact you at the email address that you provide when you leave a comment?
Best,
Dr T
I liked your other picture better.
Thanks, Bryce. You’re sweet. A friend cautioned me about using my “real identity” on the web, so I removed it. I don’t see how it makes a difference one way or the other. There are some dangerous folks out there, so I suppose I should take it a bit more seriously.
I also removed my name, which I have to admit annoys me. I’m proud of my writing and want to claim it as my own. It’s like an artist putting his signature on a painting, not that I consider myself an artist.
Thanks for your continued support. I appreciate it.
This is a great blog site! Keep up the good work!
Wow. Thanks, Joel. I needed to hear, er, read that.
Kind Regards,
Dr T
Agreed! It’s really helping me right now. And I’m thinking about contacting you for some help soon… It’s theraputic to hear the truth from a woman, and that there are warm-hearted, level-headed women out there looking for love, not war… … …
Thank you for this blog.
It’s another opportunity to see things my way.
I’m now 4 months out of what I can only imagine was a realtionship with a BPD sufferer. Most of the available information on the condition is very clinical, but your site provides the reality of the situation.
I’m still occasionally doubting whether everything was my fault, as I was told it was of course. I left when the abuse became physical, about a week after I asked her to marry me (desperate to get things back to where they were at the start).
Many thanks
Graham
Hi Graham,
I’m sorry to read you were in such a painful relationship, but very happy that you were strong enough to end it.
Everything was NOT your fault. Unfounded blame is just part of the topography in the BPD land of distortion. It allows her to label herself as the victim and you as the bad guy. It’s also a way to manipulate and control you by making you feel bad about yourself.
Borderline pathology creates a relationship based on guilt, obligation, and fear–and that’s not a relationship, it’s a psychological jail sentence.
Not all women are like this. Now you need to figure out if your attraction to this woman was an anomaly or if you have a pattern of being attracted to toxic women. If it’s the former, good. You’ll be able to recognize the warning signs and crazy behaviors and make for the nearest exit. If it’s the latter, I encourage you to figure out the origin of your attraction, so that you can break the cycle.
Thank you for reading and commenting. I truly appreciate it.
Kind Regards,
Dr T
Your premise is interesting.
I have a hard time believing, however, that “female dominated pop-psychology” really is the source of so much damage.
I might argue, generally and superficially, that the aforementioned pop psychology issues from Patriarchy–gravitas is not allowed women, and their insights are usually reserved for the more banal and domestic side of things. You know, relationships, nurturing, and not the real hard stuff of life and survival.
To your point on my comment, I don’t think gravitas marks lesser souls, but indicates a greatness of heart and courage which should be allowed both genders. There are two masks to life, the comedic and the tragic. Life is about both, as I am certain you understand.
I applaud your work.
Patriarchy is as damaging to men as it is to women.
Having to live up to power norms, in uber feminist and convenient terms, always is more difficult for the oppressor than the oppressed.
Good luck to you.
Female-dominated pop psychology has created a great deal of harm in both men and women. I’ve seen the damage done professionally and personally. It’s the cause of a lot of confusion and pain for both sexes.
Historically, women were oppressed by men, culture, religion–the “Patriarchy.” I used to believe the platitudes my undergraduate Feminine Studies professor extolled about men being the oppressors and reclaiming feminine power. Basically, the class was a group of young women who met three times a week to man bash, which was exhilarating and provided a false sense of empowerment at the age of 20.
Then I graduated, went out into the world, worked with male patients and began having adult relationships with men (not my patients). I realized that trading one “-archy” for another “-archy” isn’t growth, it’s just a change of oppressive regimes.
Men have been devalued by women and pop psychology for being who they are. The pendulum has swung to the other extreme in that women, who were once oppressed, have become the oppressors. Equality of the sexes can’t be legitimately achieved by denigrating one group in favor of the other. Additionally, gender equity is a far more realistic goal than equality, which occurs when we allow for differences in each other.
As for gravitas, it’s a noble quality that silently and strongly radiates from an individual. People who describe themselves has having gravitas have always struck me as a scooch. . . pretentious.
Best wishes,
Dr T
“I realized that trading one “-archy” for another “-archy” isn’t growth, it’s just a change of oppressive regimes.”
I have attempted to acquaint myself with both sides of the men/women history, issues, etc. as you did and have come closely to the same conclusions you have. I have experienced oppressive behavior by both male and female in positions of authority. Glad you found the truth. But I’ve also observed how “villinizing” is merely a tool for power and control- create any enemy to gain followers who can’t think for themselves. I think its not that those in power are unaware of your conclusions or disagree. They just are acutely aware that what they do pays.
This is my first post, but I believe this is an important issue here. I am interested in the double standard in not only “pop” psychology, but in scholarly work as well. It most unwelcome to voice any notions that challenge feminist orthodoxy in most universities and in publications. If you are so brave, you will be attacked for being insane, out of touch, insensitive, chauvinistic, and probably misogynist. When one brings up the term “misandry”, 99% of people – women and men – will go – never heard of it.
This new lens we look through is a produce of the rightful struggle that feminists have endured, but is coupled with the “princess” syndrome, which makes it absolutely frustrating and damn perplexing for the modern male. We can’t win for losing. In this case the victim is blamed for either being too strident or too soft.
I would really go so far as to really question how much women really have been oppressed. Scratch the surface of history, or in fact, even the Old and New Testament and you will find a world in which women have made it appear that they are oppressed. This does not for one minute excuse violence against anyone. Let’s just quit fooling ourselves about who really holds the hammer.
The insidiousness of this is that the oppressor has cleverly convinced all of us they she is the oppressed. And we buy it!
I don’t see this site as addressing the age old man v. woman crap and who “holds the hammer”. Most are here as a result of over the top crazy pantys behavior of seriously disordered women. Any other debate is off the mark.
Chester, Your post makes no sense !!!
Read the post above mine…and then mine, again. If your still baffled…well…then “Ace” doesn’t much fit you……
Touche :-) And Ace is my dogs name :-)
I agree Chester. Thank you. Stop bashing one side or the other.
Blaming one sex or the other just obscures that anyone who uses their power or position or sex to dominate and abuse others is unacceptable behaviour. Forewarned is forearmed. Run away and stay away.
My soon to be ex- is a narcissist. Having read through this site, I just have to substitute he for she to recognize the behaviour. Now I can learn how to spot it and protect myself.
Thank you Dr. T. You’re a smart woman.
To the men reading this, there are lots of lovely women who are looking for a partner not a paycheck. Don’t give up.
Dr T
You may be interested to know that I found your blog by Googling ” Borderline Bitch” lol
I am still in recovery from a long term relationship with a woman who seems to fit the profile of a walking, talking, Cluster B pathology.
An especially nasty combination of borderline/narcissistic/histrionic traits. ugh
Very disorienting to say the least.
I found your blogs to be very validating and insightful. I have more than a few male friends whom I fear are among “the walking dead” that could use these.
Thanks
Bryce
Hi Bryce,
Love the Google search term. I debated whether or not I should use the phrase crazy bitch, but realized BPD is a clinical term that isn’t on the public radar screen. These women are known by other names, like “crazy bitch.” You can’t educate people if you’re not using the same language. Also, the fact that there’s a popular Google search for Borderline Bitch speaks to the pain and damage relationships with these women (and sometimes men) can cause.
Sometimes it’s difficult to tease out which cluster B disorder you’re dealing with–there’s a lot of overlap. Thanks for reading and leaving a comment. I’m gratified that you found it helpful and, yes, please pass my blog onto your friends. These women need a warning label: Hazardous to your mental health. Btw, props to you for getting out of the relationship. It couldn’t have been easy.
Kind Regards,
Dr T
Thanks, JT.
I like to think of my blog as an underground railroad–teaching the slaves how to read. Btw, that isn’t meant as an insult. Men have the right to have their feelings and needs respected, too. Men shouldn’t have to be devalued in order for the women in their lives to feel valued.
Best,
Dr T
Way to go Dr. T. I will defnitely pass this on a to a few of the guys, I know could benefit from some straight talk.
Thanks, mom. Soon I hope to expand beyond an audience of one. I appreciate your support always.
enjoyed reading your new web site
keep up the good work
Can you give advice about how to move forward if you were in abusive relationship and now u carry and project the abuse on to your partner. Is that a normal reaction to have? I think i just get moody and distant just because of lack of trust and feeling defensive. What is best way to move forward? :( I really dont like myself at the moment.