Reaction to Women Abusing Men in Public
This is a segment produced for ABC News’ What Would You Do? series. Sadly, what is portrayed in the segment below does not surprise me. How do we get society to change their beliefs about abuse being a gender issue? Some of the people’s responses in the post interviews are just astounding in their ignorance, bias and sexism. “He probably deserved it.” Just imagine saying that to a female abuse victim.
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Shrink4Men 
Hi…Some really terrible things happening to you guys. It brings it all back to me about the violence and the arguements. I got out and am so glad that I did. In time you start to think maybe it wasn’t that bad but then I read the stuff on here and re read my own postings and it gives me strength.
I am still angry inside that I was the one that got arrested, even though I was defending myself from a vicious uncontrollable brute of a woman that is all sweetness and light to everyone until they cross her. You are right with this train of thought that it is the guy that gets blamed and the poor little woman that now has a bruise because the guy defended himself and held her arms tightly is so badly done to.
Take it from me, run, don’t look back, don’t go back or you seriously face losing it and then my friends the law have you just were they want you and you are an easy court case.
The pendulum has swung too far in favour of women. I’m sorry but it is true and what happened to me is testament to just how a guy that never even had a parking ticket can end up fighting for his freedom and life. Thankfully I was able to convince the cops I was innocent and thank God I kept photos of my bruises and split lip, also answer machine messages of threats. All this helped me fight the rubbish that she was spewing forth. They even sent two cops to arrest me because she painted a picture to them that I was a violent psychopath killer that was having some sort of steroid rage. I work out at a gym and that makes me a steroid junky???
Anyway it was OK in the end and they dropped all charges but it was only because I protected myself with evidence. Get your evidence and keep it because believe me guys you never know what they are going to do to strike back at you.
All the Best
@ HUD
…I feel you. Its been almost 9 months of NC and counting. I’ve realized how much of myself was lost in the relationship. I am still picking up the pieces. Amongst others, I’ve been alienated from my daughter and haven’t seen her in 4 months. I am always wondering how else was I gonna get my sanity back…Dr T you’ve really done a lot for me.
she came home at 10PM with our 3.5 year old daughter. not that late summer nights don’t happen. it’s just that again, the child was not well-fed, and it took like 2 seconds for my wife to comment “well, i figured you would have put away the groceries, because you had all this time…”
I had put away the perishables, just not the veggies and stuff. Our daughter was not horribly disoriented, but was not well fed, so I made her dinner. When it’s late, our daughter needs to be treated with a lot of kindness for her not to go out of control. It’s not hard, it’s just that she’ll say things like “me do me do me do!” if you’re, for example, opening up a package of food…and well…a smart and kind parent allows the child to open up the package.
My wife, all too often, rips the package open in front of the child, causing her to cry. Or, she rips the package out of the child’s hands…causing the child to cry, etc.
Anyway. With smart, delicate and sensitive parenting, I was able to feed and have a pleasant super-late dinner with our daughter. I was able to keep my wife at bay, I separated my wife from our daughter when she started playing with a toy ducky in a way that our daughter did not like, and instead of “waiting” for my wife to put our daughter to bed, I just proceeded to brush teeth, wash up and headed to bed.
Honestly, when a child says no, and does not want to be nibbled by a toy duck, why would a parent keep doing it until the child either starts crying or punching at the duck and the parent? The whole point is to respect the child, set appropriate boundaries so that the child can make good decisions while growing into adulthood. A child that has needed to punch mommy to get her to stop nibbling her with a duck…is well…likely going to need to deal with some emotional issues regarding respect.
I mean, if I were in that situation, I would stop nibbling with the duck, maybe start quacking the duck, and if it’s not working, I’d say ChildsName no like ducky now? And if the child says “No like ducky!” I put ducky away. Period. Maybe that’s why kids like me so much. I listen to them and care what they say. Also, geeze, they’re just learning how to say no, set boundaries, they’re feeling out what “this existence” is even like. Sometimes, back to the opening a package example, the child just wants to see if he/she can do the task. They are so eager to try to open the package…and then…well…they can’t do it. So, the child says “ChildName no can…papa do?” And papa takes the package from the child’s extended hand and opens the package…possibly even showing the child how it’s done and saying “when you’re big big, you’ll open packages too!”
Big smiles, the world is a happy place. And well…you even, in a sense “buy” upcoming “no’s,” so when you really need a “no,” you use it and it works.
How about examining whether your parenting is EFFECTIVE. Sheesh.
Anyway, my wife came into the bedroom, it’s 11PM and now mama is putting our daughter to bed…and well…she’s still nursing our 3.5 year old. And she mentioned over a year ago in counseling that she wanted to wean…but she hasn’t weaned.
I can tell by the energy coming from the room that my daughter has totally crashed, so at least that’s that.
Anyway, folks, I want to “apologize” that my issues are “off topic” in this thread. But then, I don’t want to constantly apologize either. Or constantly defend. It is what it is, if it leads to aggression that I posted here instead of elsewhere…I guess I’m all “attacked out.” So, I do apologize if my posts might not be exactly relevant, it’s just that the public violence against men topic is what catalyzed these thoughts.
One thing, I guess I could come up with a more concise list of factual things my wife has said and done, however, umm…how psycho does this situation sound, how messed up do I sound, and well how extreme does my wife’s behavior sound?
What about my wife’s willingness to do a psychological evaluation, and what about her “moments of clarity” that do seem to be related to superfoods, certain teas and tinctures that were prescribed by a yoga doctor (but she only took for one wonderful day), oxygen therapy, etc.?
It’s like a switch was thrown when we got married.
And now…I’m done with this multiple posting spree…thanks for being here…
…there…created a presentation video for my job app just now…glad i could vent here and center myself.
it’s not my wife’s P/T job that’s from 4-6PM, that’s when she comes home…and just reading that makes me go: OK, I take care of our daughter all day. My wife then can barely be “convinced” to care take. She doesn’t come directly home, because she has “things” to do. She won’t go on a budget. When school is in session, she rarely takes or picks up our daughter from school (even after committing to do so). She rarely makes meals. She came home the other day and literally RAGED about stuff that took me less than 10 minutes to tidy up…and I’d put in about 3 hours of hard-core cleaning that day (together with our daughter…in a fun way). Basically, I’m un-burying our household from nasty, funky, disgusting disorganization and neglect (caused by my wife). And she came home and say some things that were “out of place” but actually were in use. I mean, there were face paints on the living room table…and I put our daughter in the bathtub before tidying up the table…so my wife said I was not teaching our child the right “values.”
This post is about public abuse. I know my stuff is personal, and I guess this is my turn to vent. I’m having a bit of an wake-up moment right now.
The thing that really sucks is that in public, my wife does not talk to me the way she does at home. And well…in public…sometimes I wind up looking like I’m mad…well…because in public…she “sometimes” puts on this kind happy look and I start talking and then she says some stuff right off the 10 signs your wife is an emotional bully…and then I get agitated and what…sure looks like I’m an angry man having a tough time controlling “my anger.”
How about the only time my wife appears to be listening is in public and sometimes she even lets me finish a few sentences in a row in public. I do wind up feeling like I just might have a chance to be heard about the household, our finances, something she may have done or said…in public.
But maybe that’s also an aha moment. She “appears” to be listening. And that’s why this whole thing is so crazy frustrating.
Today:
Setup: I’ve been working on several businesses and just got off unemployment. Our daughter’s kindergarten is not in session, so I’ve been with our daughter from AM until my wife comes home from her P/T job (4PM to 6PM).
I can say that I’ve gone from quite the over-achiever to almost not caring, because motions for any kind of improvement get blocked by my wife.
My wife is supposed to take care of our daughter in the evenings until bed time, and I go to a cafe to work online (even though it would be better if I could stay home where I have a faster Internet connection and better food).
Some of the posters here talk about their partners being good mothers. At least I can honestly say that for my wife to be a “good mother,” things need to be “just right,” and well, it’s pretty clear that I am our daughter’s primary care taker. My wife doesn’t even understand some of the things our daughter says (she’s pretty young and says things in a kid-like way). So, really, I don’t find my wife to be a very good mother, as painful as that is to admit.
She’ll poke our daughter when she does not want to be poked. She’ll take stuff away from our daughter that she is legitimately using. She’ll take a really nasty tone with our daughter, making our daughter cry…over completely stupid stuff where a simple kind explanation would get much better results.
Anyway, it’s Saturday. On weekends, my wife is “supposed” to take care of our daughter. My wife had told our daughter that they were going to a summer festival.
To make the transition possible, I left for the market around 11AM and stayed a little “long” so that they would not be home when I got there. I came home around 1:45, and they were still home. To avoid any kind of discussion, I drank some beer to be tired enough to sleep and somehow “blinded” enough to not respond to my wife…I gave our daughter lunch…I danced with her in the kitchen which was really fun…and then helped our daughter have nap time.
Not that it really matters: I am not a heavy drinker. The beer was organic and well…made by a farmer I know personally…and it just tastes “friendly.” Lately though, I have to say that I’ve had beer before going to sleep or sometimes before talking to my wife. The things she says are so insane (in my opinion).
Anyway, my plan was to do a job application today, and it was “mommy and daughter go to the festival, daddy stays home and does some work.”
Well, I woke up and lingered in bed, because they were still home. Our daughter had woken up already and was with mommy. My mind was going “for crying out loud, are they going to leave…she promised our daughter a festival…”
Went to the living room, and my wife was on the computer, so no job application and well, computer use has been “complicated.” Maybe I should just outright call it “crazy.” It’s not sane. It’s just not. Basically, when I went on unemployment, I worked very hard at building some businesses online…it was a time of transition…if I so much as got off the computer to go to the bathroom…my wife would swoop in and start using the computer.
I’ve tried now, to set the “boundary” that my wife would need to tell me 24 hours in advance when she wants to use the computer…because we’ve had endless conversations about how if I’m in the middle of something, it’s not appropriate for her to just “take over” the computer…it’s much more appropriate to work things out so that both of us can use the computer as much as we’d like, but that just takes coordination and mutual respect.
The idea behind the 24 hours in advance computer use schedule is just to bring some kind of normalcy, some kind of stability into our life. I could totally imagine a functional family or even just a couple with one computer where the family/couple has a calendar by the computer and you just write in when you need/want to use it. If your name is on the sheet, you use the computer then. I mean, in a healthy relationship, even the sheet itself might not be necessary, because it would be something like “Nancy goes to work at Noon on Fridays, and Ron does not work on Fridays, but Nancy likes to use the computer after breakfast until she leaves for work on Fridays.” That kind of stuff is normal. If Ron doesn’t work on Fridays, then maybe he goes jogging then or something or does some kind of chores…but the point is wife and husband interact in a mutually respectful fashion.
So, back to today: at a few minutes before 6PM, I realized that I had not purchased eggs. Actually, the market I went to did not have the kind of eggs I like, and I had planned to come home, do my job application while my wife and daughter were gone, and then head out to the store that has the organic eggs.
Well…no job application, just dancing with my daughter, giving her lunch, putting her to sleep…while my wife sat on the couch.
So, basically, our daughter is starting to cry when she needs to spend time with mommy. That’s normal even with both parents being good people and parents when one parent spends the bulk of the time with the child.
Well, it was 7 minutes to 6PM and I was like “Papa needs to go get your tortellinis and some eggies,” and I was able to leave without a big catastrophe.
Again, I stopped by some shops where I know the owners and kind of lingered, because my wife said that they’d be going out.
6:45 I come home and my daughter runs into my arms, but they are on their way out.
It was a sunny, beautiful summer day where I live. Temperature: just right. Perfect for a summer festival.
As I write, it is almost 7:45 PM and frankly, it’s bed time.
My wife has brought our daughter home, not well fed, disoriented, and in a completely messed up emotional state at 10:20 PM. Our child is not yet 4 years old. She needs care, parenting, love, and nurturing, not complete effing insanity.
My wife seems to be making some efforts. But now, instead of doing my job application, I am posting here.
I don’t have enough money to move out. If there were a mens shelter type of place that I could go to with my daughter, I would go. Money is my ticket out. It’s hard to earn with constant chaos around you along with near full responsibility for a child. The thing is, my wife is incredibly unreliable. And I’ve adjusted to that, but next…she’s also destructive.
She seems to be “trying” to make some changes. She rearranged our living room yesterday. She seems to “want” things to work out and be OK. She did say that she was willing to undergo a psychological evaluation. I’m willing as well.
A friend sent me the link to this video because; he has been through a BPD relationship and he knows what I am going through myself now. She and I have been separated for two months. She has finally agreed to go to counseling and I must try to make that work. I married this woman in church in front of God and made those promises which, to me are sacred. I know that we are not well but, I still know who she is and who I am. I have required that she return to work (done), that we see a counselor (as a friend who is the chair of the psychiatry department at an Ivy League college advised), and that she begin attend church with me again. She is trying to work her way back into our house, again, prior to completing these other requirements.
The following is an email to one of my oldest female friends:
Thanks. Yes, she and I have both been physically abusive. You know all about me and my unbreakable/bendable rules/laws. One of them is that you “Never Hit a Woman” and I have broken it. She can not have an adult discussion, the moment anything even vaguely critical of her is said she gets angry and reaches for anything worse to say to you that she can possible think of, and she comes up with some real knives to slash you with, and then walks out of the room. After a couple of years of this, when the market fell out of the business and we were near insolvent, I began to attempt to stop her and sit her back down to finish the matter; they were important and could not be left for a week until she was lovey-dovey again. Nothing violent or forceful; I would just put my arm around her and say that we needed to solve this and to please sit back down guiding her return. About the third or forth time I did this she exploded and began to hit me in the chest and arms until she was exhausted. I did nothing other than to warn her that it was not acceptable and that it could turn dangerous quickly. After that she began to hit me, in the same manner, when she got really pissed. The fifth time she did it I grabbed her by the throat, slammed her against the wall, punched her in the arm, and told her from here on out if she touched me she would get back for what she gave. I then became an “abusive husband”, the fact that she had literally beaten me five times was not of import because; “A woman can not hurt a real man. Show me your bruises! Show me any mark on your body like I now have on mine!”
We have been in this abuse cycle now for three years, it is textbook classic, and I have been trying to get us to counseling. I can no longer take it, I am a nervous wreck. When she is in a good mood it’s all lovey-dovey, a black mood I am afraid to come home. She criticizes me constantly throughout the day yet, should I say anything even vaguely critical of her she turns black. She wanted a better house “If you were a man/good provider we would have a….” you add it better house, new car, cell phones, better cloths…..I have done everything that I can to make her happy, it lasts for a month or two and then there is something else we need to have that I have not supplied. She will not go to church with me because her cloths are old or to friends houses for dinner because we will be “…the paupers of the group…” yet, when I have extra money and want to give it to her to buy cloths she refuses it because “We might need it to pay the bills next month.”. I work day and night trying to make the money to give her the things that she wants and I see other Americans here able to give their wives and she gets mad because; I do not spend enough time with her. Sometimes I get so nerved up that I have to go smoke some weed with a friend just to calm down and if she sees that I have, she turns black, abusive, and treats me like a pile of trash that she has to walk around for a week or more, stops cooking for me, washing my cloths, et cetera.
She has twice come at me with a knife, tried to hit me in the head with a heavy glass vase which, I knocked out of her hand and she then picked up a large shard of and tried to slash my throat with and when I stopped her, my stomach, and most recently threw a pressure cooker top at my head. I broke my “bad” hand turning quickly and accidentally slamming it against a door jamb, trying not to fight and get away from her as my friend …. told me to do. The next fight, after it had started to heal, she hit me there with everything she could muster first shot and broke it again. In the last fight I slipped on the wet floor and went down hard almost hitting my head on the granite countertop, what would have been a death blow, and broke it again from the impact. My right hand I broke a few months ago punching the armoire rather than her because I knew if I hit her I would likely kill her. And then the middle finger the night of the last fight, when I came home and she refused to leave me alone even when I came up to the terrace to my office. She stood in the door staring at me and when I closed the door came to the window; I jumped up and slammed the two halves of the window together catching my finger in the middle and shattering it completely. I have been in constant pain now for months.
Look, I know…that I am a part of the problems between us, that it is never all one sided…that I am not the best, smartest, or most attractive guy out there…that most other people, men or women, seem to do a lot better in life than I have…that most people see me as a foolish, immature, ne’er-do-well…that, in the words of (a mutual acquaintance), due to a genetic fuck-up I am “Half a Man”. I know that I made some promises/shared some dreams with her that I have not been able to bring to fruition. I know all of this and much more, but I get up every day and do my absolute level best for us to honestly survive, giving people everything that I say I will if I possibly can, and do so with as much integrity and dignity as I can muster regardless of how those around me act or what they think of me for it. Until such time as God decides I have fulfilled His purposes for me here, that is what I must do. And I know He is there because; I have challenged Him to show Himself twice and in a way He has…and when all the problems with my family, losing the ……. house, and my arm happened; all I wanted to do was die which I tried to do three times, even unconsciously, and He sent me back. So like it or not, those are the facts but, I can not live any longer with the situation as it is; it must change or end. That will depend, in large part, on …….’s willingness or not to change it.
(End of email.)
So, that’s my story. I am giving her the chance of the counseling and she is not moving her things back into the house until we have at least a couple of months under our belts. Everyone is telling me it is a mistake but, I believe in God and thusly miracles; and I know that He can deliver one if it is The Right Thing.
JZ,
Do not let her back in the house, now or ever. I try to be respectful of other’s religious beliefs, but when a marriage turns violent my respect for other people’s beliefs flies out the window.
You are caught in a very sick dynamic that is unlikely to get better with counseling as it is long standing and pervasive. Your wife has already shown she is not serious about changing because she is trying to worm her way back into the home before getting help.
As far as I’m concerned, physical violence nullifies the marriage contract as does chronic emotional abuse. This doesn’t include the occasional harsh word or argument. Abuse is repetitive and slowly erodes your well-being. If there is a God, and you believe he/she created you, wouldn’t that God want you to respect his/her creation? Are you respecting the sanctity of your personage, life and God’s creation by staying with this woman and getting down in the mud with her? Isn’t it hubris to imagine you can save this woman or anyone else?
Save yourself, man. I understand how you were driven to violence by your wife’s behavior. I don’t condone it, but I understand it. If I were your counselor, I would not recommend joint counseling sessions at this time. You both need to be in individual treatment and no contact for 1 year. Your wife needs to be in weekly treatment specifically for BPD, because this is probably what she has. The typical, “Oh you poor dear, you’re just misunderstood and had a bad childhood. Let Auntie Enabler Shrinky Shrink validate your irrational emotions and bad behavior” therapy bullshit will NOT suffice. She needs a trained DBT therapist who knows about her violent behavior. She needs to sign a release form documenting that she is attending treatment (many blow it off when they’re held accountable), if any progress is being made and if she doesn’t do this, you do not reunite.
As for you, get support from a secular counselor. Someone who will help you heal, work through your justified anger, help you understand how you were sucked into violence and how you allowed yourself to become violent. Someone who will help you with all these issues to restore YOU to health; restoring your marriage should be at the bottom of the list of therapeutic priorities right now. If you don’t get healthy and if your wife can’t get healthy (which I believe is HIGHLY unlikely given your account), THERE WILL BE NO MARRIAGE TO RESTORE. It will just be two out-of-control, violent, angry people coming back together because of vows they made before God. Again, if there is a God, I’m pretty sure he/she would not condone these kinds of unions nor would he/she want people remaining in violent, destructive relationships in his/her name. And if there is a God and he/she is okay with these kinds of relationships and staying together even when your very soul is being destroyed, then I’m glad I’m not religious.
I apologize for coming across as harsh, but this is a gravely serious situation that can’t be fixed in 8-10 couples counseling sessions. Please get support for yourself regardless of what your wife does or does not do. You can’t save anyone else; you can only save yourself. Do not let her drag you down anymore than she already has. If you continue down this path, one or both of you will either end up in jail or the city morgue.
Dr Tara
JZ: As woman raised in the Christian faith, and still holding true to it (albiet with a grain of salt)…I agree wholeheartedly with Dr. Tara. every word.
You CAN stay true to your faith while saving yourself from a life of anger and abuse.
While many Christian counselors will advise you to save the marriage no matter what (which goes AGAINST Biblical principles), what makes a marriage, if not two healthy, giving human beings? What can you give to one another living the way you have?
If Dr. T doesn’t mind, please visit:
http://www.divorcehope.com/
and
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/october/20.26.html
and consider the following: Psalm 37, which says quit wasting time with the wicked, they’ll pass into history – instead “consider the blameless, observe the upright, there is a future for the man of peace.”
1. To those here trying to explain or to make sense of these emotional vampires- forget it. They lack any empathy & everything they are is an act. They have no feelings- what they think is “feelings” is a learned reaction based on observations of others, & without affect for them.
“I thought I was marrying someone who would love me and grow old with me until death. What I got was someone who was merely hastening my death.” -Lynn Millville
“The nice, sweet loving person is who they want to be. Unfortunately, they abusive, cruel, hateful person is who they really are.” –Lynn Millville
God Bless,
very helpful articles TheGirlInside, thank you very much…
Dr. Tara,
Thank you, sincerely, for your reply. I’ve absolutely no intention of letting her back in the house and I will not. Yes, my female friend said as much herself. And yes, I am aware that her actions do not bode well. She in fact has made the statement “I have no problems, the problems are all yours and if I do have any problems they were created by you.” But, I have been through a lot of therapy over my lifetime due to the Kallmann’s and know that a good therapist can crack that shell. I have allowed her visiting privileges and there have already been incidents so, NO WAY is she coming home, yet.
I too believe that these types of behavior nullify the marriage contract. I am however; the type of person who only gives up when every last possible alternative has been exhausted. I watched this woman for two years (I and my partner made our negotiations at a table outside the café where she worked.) before a friend asked her out for me; he was a native speaker, respected by her, and I felt that she would look upon me as just another foreigner trying to “get in her pants” and then trash her. She was and still is the type of woman that I would see people enter her place of work with a scowl on their faces and after having contact with her leave smiling ear to ear. She is naturally stunningly beautiful and very exotic with an otherwise endearing personality. On a recent tour through Europe (business) the European men were just falling all over themselves because of it and not few; she drew them and has always drawn men, though she had always remained chaste sans for one failed “True Love”, like moths to a flame. (I do realize the irony of the end of that statement.)
I agree with your views concerning God’s wants for his creation. No it is not hubris Tara because; I do not believe that I can save her but, I do believe that God can absolutely save us. Concerning God, I shall not evangelize because it is not my style but must say that, He absolutely does exist. By whatsoever name one may choose to call upon Him (Allah, Consciousness, God, The Universe, et al ad infinitum) or not He is, has been, and forever will be The Great I Am. It is not uncommon for Him to test His people with “Trial by Fire” and He has often done so within my life. And, when those trials have become what I felt were more than I could bear I have called upon Him, challenging Him and He has shown Himself in ways that made it unarguably clear to me that He does indeed exist. If you would like to hear about those sometime; I will gladly relate them to you. I sense it is organized religion that you seem to…..despise to which I may only say… Religions are large institutions and institutions as a general rule have people who are a part of them for all the right and all the wrong reasons. When one focuses solely on those who are present for all the wrong Tara; it is easy to discredit the overwhelming majority who are present for all the right. (OK well, perhaps just a little bit, evangelizing that is.)
Believe me you, the desire to “cut and run” has been strong for some time now and I am breaking yet another rule by continuing even after I have said “It is over.” but feel that I must give her this final chance after three years of fighting for this, even though it may just be her way of holding on a little longer. Nor do I condone violence Tara and it has hallowed me out that I have…..fallen…into it. I have severely beaten other men for doing the same and were my father alive he would undoubtedly fulfill his promise to “…break your frickin’ neck!” That was Chuck’s recommendation three years ago when this all started, he was less confident in its result several months ago after I gave her the “better house” and a few other things she had thrown in my face and then we were back at it within two months. At dinner tonight with a group of my contemporaries my closest associate, also psychoanalyst with whom I have discussed these matters, was in complete accordance with your diagnoses, including the incurability. However, the trained DBT therapist could be quite a stretch in the extremely rural area of the “Third World” country where we live. I of course, will attempt to follow your recommendation and do my utmost to find a competent one if at all possible.
I am aware that I need some personal counseling after all of this but also, because of prior counseling, am content with myself though I know that I, as do we all, still have my problems. I additionally know that, for the most part, the stimulus for my ill feelings come from without and the removal of that external negative stimulus, such as in this instance my wife, will quickly return my equilibrium. I strongly agree with both of your points; that ending in “…THERE WILL BE NO MARRIAGE TO RESTORE” and that ending in “…one or both of you will end up in either jail or the city morgue.” However as a life long entrepreneur, successful and not, “can’t” has never been a part of my vocabulary; especially if in reference to the abilities of God. I am however; when confronted with definitive defeat, able to admit it and after a period of mourning, move on to the next stage of my life which, I most definitely shall do need I. I promise that to myself foremost, you Tara, and all who are already urging me to do so.
No need for apologies Tara, rather I need again demonstrate my gratitude to you; for you have given your time, considerable knowledge, and put forth the rather rare effort to attempt to help me, a person whom you know not nor will likely ever benefit from. You’ve a good soul; I thank you and God for it.
Have a great weekend! Fica com Deus;
JZ
P.S.:
To The Girl Inside: I am researching your references as time allows. I thank you too for your time and rather rare effort put forth in attempting to help me. I will attempt to respond to you as well after having completed this. Fica com Deus, Ele è fièl!
To Anon.Father: Thanks for commiserating and your effort in doing so.
JZ, I’m glad you shared here, it can be a good beginning for you. On my end, I’d like to mention that about 6 years ago, I ended what was a growing violent “reaction” in me to how my wife was treating me. I’d like to recount “what I did,” here, kind of to see if the degree of the abuse matters.
I didn’t know that my wife was being emotionally or verbally abusive 8 years ago, I just knew I was very uncomfortable with how she was treating me, and how she was talking to me. I also knew there was something very “wrong” with it.
Now I know that telling someone what they are doing, who they are, how they are being, what they think, and then basically getting enraged when you try to tell them what you are ACTUALLY doing, what you are REALLY feeling or thinking, well, at least the first step where she’s defining you, is called projection and is considered verbally abusive.
Then, I just felt like I was being trapped in a cage, like I was getting surrounded, like I couldn’t speak or breathe.
I threw things a few times, and twice, while my wife was flailing and out of control and spinning in some kind of self-inflicted negative tirade, I “put” her down into a soft chair. I threw her into our bed once, and once, I threw her into our bed and made punching motions above her head.
The thing is that for me, it took weeks to recover from those incidents. I may have even talked about them here before…I spoke with priests, counselors, my mother, etc. etc.
My wife literally wanted to watch a movie a few minutes later.
After the incident where I threw my wife down and punched above her head (she almost rolled into one of my punches and that’s when I stopped). I sought counsel, talked with my wife and said that regardless of what she had in her past, I was not going to hit her. Period. I said that it seemed like she was provoking me, that there was almost a vortex bringing out violence in me…it really honestly seemed like she was provoking me until I got enraged.
At that point, I knew about the severity of the violence in her past. Her mother grabbing her by the hair and slamming her into the wall, her parents having brawls. I told her it’s just not happening.
Since then, once, I took out a bunch of food from our fridge during an argument and started stomping on it and said “this is what you are doing to our marriage!” I also slipped on the food, fell, cleaned it all up and felt really dorky about it.
And, since then, the third time my wife said to me, and she actually said this to me. My wife said to me “I am the king and you are the queen, and you’re just going to have to live with it.” Once she said “deal with it.” Anyway, the third time, we were in bed, and I took a pillow and jerked it a bit slightly bopping her on the knee.
My wife has “disbelieved” that her “love bites” were hurting, despite the fact that I was yelling “OW!” and she has left bruises. My wife has “tried” to give me a massage, but if she does something that hurts, well…I just “have to deal with it.” She has given me hugs that really honestly hurt my neck. She stands in front of the sink in an intimidating way. She says “excuse YOU” instead of excuse me.
And, one evening, when she was enraged, and I’d created a “safety plan” and was trying to leave our home with our daughter. She punched me twice, and I called the police. Because I was noticeably injured, the police actually did a very good job. They were going to just haul me off to jail, but I had the welt on my forehead, and my wife said things like “he locked me in the kitchen,” which is actually physically impossible unless I were to get ridiculously creative…I mean the police accurately assessed that I could press charges, not my wife…and well…I didn’t…they gave her a rose and released us that night under the condition that we seek counseling.
So, I guess, my question is, for men who have shown some physical aggression back…does any kind of “relative scale” of abuse matter? Does it matter that I am pummeled daily with verbal and emotional abuse and physical bullying?
This is a horrible question, but does it matter that she left bruises, and I didn’t?
While I was “acting out,” it felt really funny actually. I was essentially trying to show my wife what her words, her emotions were actually “doing” to me. Even though I was the person taking the actions, I didn’t “complete” them, meaning I didn’t hit her, and I kind of “went through the motions” that were almost unavoidable. I mean, her physical posturing is one of attack. It has been really hard to “unlearn” the physical gestures that one usually goes through when treated aggressively.
I mean, if a guy positioned himself the way my wife does at a bar, in a “discussion,” well…it would be clear that the guy wants to fight.
JZ: God will deliver a miracle if it is the right thing. So maybe let God do the work here. Feel into what God is saying, what God is doing…and well…go with it. There’s a difference between God’s will and your personal will. That’s always our challenge…to really feel that difference and to go where and how God calls. Also, not what your preacher says or what you think the Bible says: but what God, your spririt, your body, your emotions, your soul are truly telling you is healthiest for you.
You’ve set appropriate boundaries. See how they feel first. She is not moving in until she has at least 6 months of therapy behind her. Same for you. 2 months sounds really short to me. Of course, you will make your choices and I wish you safety and send peaceful blessings.
There is a part of me that is seeking faith-supported separation. Maybe there is such a thing…
JZ, I’m glad you shared here, it can be a good beginning for you. On my end, I’d like to mention that about 6 years ago, I ended what was a growing violent “reaction” in me to how my wife was treating me. I’d like to recount “what I did,” here, kind of to see if the degree of the abuse matters.
I didn’t know that my wife was being emotionally or verbally abusive 8 years ago, I just knew I was very uncomfortable with how she was treating me, and how she was talking to me. I also knew there was something very “wrong” with it.
Now I know that telling someone what they are doing, who they are, how they are being, what they think, and then basically getting enraged when you try to tell them what you are ACTUALLY doing, what you are REALLY feeling or thinking, well, at least the first step where she’s defining you, is called projection and is considered verbally abusive.
Then, I just felt like I was being trapped in a cage, like I was getting surrounded, like I couldn’t speak or breathe.
I threw things a few times, and twice, while my wife was flailing and out of control and spinning in some kind of self-inflicted negative tirade, I “put” her down into a soft chair. I threw her into our bed once, and once, I threw her into our bed and made punching motions above her head.
The thing is that for me, it took weeks to recover from those incidents. I may have even talked about them here before…I spoke with priests, counselors, my mother, etc. etc.
My wife literally wanted to watch a movie a few minutes later.
After the incident where I threw my wife down and punched above her head (she almost rolled into one of my punches and that’s when I stopped). I sought counsel, talked with my wife and said that regardless of what she had in her past, I was not going to hit her. Period. I said that it seemed like she was provoking me, that there was almost a vortex bringing out violence in me…it really honestly seemed like she was provoking me until I got enraged.
At that point, I knew about the severity of the violence in her past. Her mother grabbing her by the hair and slamming her into the wall, her parents having brawls. I told her it’s just not happening.
Since then, once, I took out a bunch of food from our fridge during an argument and started stomping on it and said “this is what you are doing to our marriage!” I also slipped on the food, fell, cleaned it all up and felt really dorky about it.
And, since then, the third time my wife said to me, and she actually said this to me. My wife said to me “I am the king and you are the queen, and you’re just going to have to live with it.” Once she said “deal with it.” Anyway, the third time, we were in bed, and I took a pillow and jerked it a bit slightly bopping her on the knee.
My wife has “disbelieved” that her “love bites” were hurting, despite the fact that I was yelling “OW!” and she has left bruises. My wife has “tried” to give me a massage, but if she does something that hurts, well…I just “have to deal with it.” She has given me hugs that really honestly hurt my neck. She stands in front of the sink in an intimidating way. She says “excuse YOU” instead of excuse me.
And, one evening, when she was enraged, and I’d created a “safety plan” and was trying to leave our home with our daughter. She punched me twice, and I called the police. Because I was noticeably injured, the police actually did a very good job. They were going to just haul me off to jail, but I had the welt on my forehead, and my wife said things like “he locked me in the kitchen,” which is actually physically impossible unless I were to get ridiculously creative…I mean the police accurately assessed that I could press charges, not my wife…and well…I didn’t…they gave her a rose and released us that night under the condition that we seek counseling.
So, I guess, my question is, for men who have shown some physical aggression back…does any kind of “relative scale” of abuse matter? Does it matter that I am pummeled daily with verbal and emotional abuse and physical bullying?
This is a horrible question, but does it matter that she left bruises, and I didn’t?
While I was “acting out,” it felt really funny actually. I was essentially trying to show my wife what her words, her emotions were actually “doing” to me. Even though I was the person taking the actions, I didn’t “complete” them, meaning I didn’t hit her, and I kind of “went through the motions” that were almost unavoidable. I mean, her physical posturing is one of attack. It has been really hard to “unlearn” the physical gestures that one usually goes through when treated aggressively.
I mean, if a guy positioned himself the way my wife does at a bar, in a “discussion,” well…it would be clear that the guy wants to fight.
JZ: God will deliver a miracle if it is the right thing. So maybe let God do the work here. Feel into what God is saying, what God is doing…and well…go with it. There’s a difference between God’s will and your personal will. That’s always our challenge…to really feel that difference and to go where and how God calls. Also, not what your preacher says or what you think the Bible says: but what God, your spririt, your body, your emotions, your soul are truly telling you is healthiest for you.
You’ve set appropriate boundaries. See how they feel first. She is not moving in until she has at least 6 months of therapy behind her. Same for you. 2 months sounds really short to me. Dr. T. advises she never move back in the house…ever. Her advice sounds reasonable and, well, safer than your plan. Of course, you will make your choices and I wish you safety and send peaceful blessings.
There is a part of me that is seeking faith-supported separation. Maybe there is such a thing…
Anon and Brian, those stories are painful, though I was not married I was with a similar woman for 6 years. She did not hit me but the yelling, then silence for days, then return to normal was an endless cycle. Slowly my friends were not around, I saw my family less, and I went from a very active life with many friends to a guy who sat on the couch drinking wine alone while she and her daughter sat alone in their rooms.
Then her daughter, now 20, started to call me a “twat” and a “loser” and mom defended her saying it was true. So, I kept taking it, paying for everything, rent, bills, trips, she went through my phone, email, thought I was dating every girl at work, called me a liar, gay, asshole, I had no backbone.
Finally, on a Friday night she needed help moving the furniture around in her storage to sell some things, I told her, I cannot help you that night, I have to work and it’s been a long week. She went to move the furniture, called me, I said, I told you lets do it another time, can’t help. She went off on me, called me every name there is, stayed in a hotel and said I left her alone and made her stay in a hotel because I am an asshole. Her and her daughter left and have not spoken to me since. It is sad some days, when she was nice she was great, but, I am noticing that I am more relaxed, I don’t stress when I walk in the door. I play more hockey and run more, things are better. Hard to leave someone you love, but, is yelling, silent treatment, name calling, and having zero trust in someone love? I think not. Good luck
What is sad, and not shown on the tape, in alot of jurisdictions, after that lady called the cops on the lady beating on the guy; The cops would have arrived and arrested the victim.
Sad, but very true.
Thanks for highlighting the double standards Dr. T.
I stumbled across your website when I was researchng ‘closure’ and I’ve been a fan ever since. Your work has helped me to recover and ultimately leave an extremely toxic relationship. To everyone in dysfunctional and abusive relations, save yourself and your sanity be leaving and not looking back. If loving them means that you can’t love you, then you MUST choose you. Blessed be.
Brian…lots of direct parallels on my end. LOTS. Thanks for posting and sharing. I’m starting to have my first full-blown anxiety attacks. Yay. I’m afraid to go home. I’m afraid not to go home, because my wife is with our daughter and can act very out of control. But I really really don’t want to try to resolve, dissolve, inform, defend myself, defend my daughter, etc. etc. I also don’t want to listen to why my wife is so angry anymore…just to go through a long conversation where I only get to speak when I’m talking about nothing…and if I so much as “enter” the conversation with an opinion, a though, a need, a desire, a want, an observation…BOOM. She either flips out, zones out, starts reading something, picks up her phone.
And yeah, she goes through my emails. Goes through my phone. Rages and forgets. I mean, same exact map. It also takes me a while to recover from the episodes, and she literally is ready to watch a movie two seconds later…or not…or she’s back in a rage…or she notices that there is a hair on my shirt while I’m saying something that’s important to me.
My wife will rage over things “out of place” even while they are actually “in use.” She put back our daughter’s stuffed animals while she was playing with them. Our daughter was crying “mama put away mine friends.”
The thing is, my wife does not rage in public. I’ve often gone to public places on purpose to talk. She does completely neglect our daughter in public though, and I am 100% primary care taker in public. The thing that’s tough, though, is that she can say the meanest, most abusive stuff to me…in a low tone…or right when no one else can hear it…in public. And if I get riled up, she’s like “stop yelling.”
…and I really wasn’t yelling…
And I’m like “umm…I’m not yell—”
Her: “You need to calm down.”
Me: I’m just trying to say–
Her: “It’s not my fault you can’t handle XYZ”
Me: Please stop that, telling me what I can’t handle is a projec—
Her: “I’m not here to have you lecture me”
Me: Can you let me finish my sente–
Her: SPEAK then! Speak! (waving her hand in contempt)
Me: I’m not comfortable with that setup
Her: I don’t know WHAT you’re talking about.
Me: I don’t like it when you tell me to “speak” like that, it puts me in to a position of …
Her: Wife zones out, checks her phone
Her: Look, I’m not having you diagnose me with any of that stuff you’ve found online, I’m just not going to have it
Me: What about me? I mean, yes, I’ve found information online that makes sense to me, but at the core of this is that I’m really uncomfortable with how you’re treating me.
Her: Did you want to talk about the budget?
Me: I’m talking about your treatment of me right now
Her: I thought we were supposed to talk about our budget.
Me: Yes, but…geeze…
Her: What’s the budget?
Me: Well, I outlined our income and our spending and it makes sense that we take a look at how much we spend on eating out…also we aren’t making enough to cover our expenses and I keep borrowing from my side of the family, but to date, we have not borrowed or talked with your side of the family about our situation
Her: Let’s not bring my family into this
Me: OK, well, I also wanted to say that you bought some clothes early in the month and you wanted to take a mini-vacation, and that put us over budget and
Her: It’s not like those clothes were expensive
Me: I’m not talking about whether the clothes were expensive, I’m talking about putting our minds ahead of our spending, about conscious spending, not just
Her: I think our daughter deserves new clothes from time to time.
Me: Of course she does, but we can’t just–
Her: So I’m to blame for getting her that dress?
Me: What do you mean “to blame?”
Her: It’s not my fault you aren’t making any money. Why are you having such a hard time getting clients, since I’ve been working, you’re home all day.
Me: You work part time, I take our daughter to and from school every day, I have a maximum of 4 hours of time per day and I am doing my best to clean up our place, do the laundry, clean up the incredibly funky sink, clean up the floors…it does not leave me with a lot of time to–
Her: You’re just trying to blame me for everything.
Me: It takes me a long time to recover from these kinds of conversations, and it’s not like I’m not making any money at all, I’ve paid our rent from my business account for the last three months
Her: laughing you have a hair on your shirt
etc.
OK, this is supposed to be about physical abuse of men in public. I guess I’m diverging, sorry, I literally felt like my heart was going to stop about an hour ago…
What about verbal and emotional abuse perpetrated in public by women who use a low tone and kind of a “poker face?”
Watching both of those videos turned my stomach. When do we get to the point in culture where dehumanizing any group or class is genuinely unacceptable? After listening to Harriet Lerner and reading Elizabeth Gilbert women like the one who was motivated to swings by seeing this abuse internalize it as a sort of liberation for their gender?
And casting a man out of a fast-moving car – this isn’t anything close to slapstick, it’s the glorification of violence against a class, but it is understood with a straight face, even indignation by two successful professionals of both genders as light-hearted humor?
Which civil rights movement equated its success and liberation with the right to malign and physically attack other classes of people?
Anyway – bearing in mind that the media is clipping what were probably hours-long discussions to give 10-15 second impressions on a 6 minute spot, if we take the reporters at their word, its still deeply troubling that so many observers explain themselves by stating that they assumed the man had cheated on her.
This is a rationale for violence? On what planet, in what world, does cheating entitle the one cheated upon to commit violence against the cheater … but overwhelmingly people assume that to be the case and, well, that’s ok. It’s like we have non-verbally agreed that there’s this free “get out of jail free” monopoly card for women, “it isn’t okay to hit men, EXCEPT when … and … and …”.
Hi all,
I guess I have a hard time calling my wife a physical abuser or thinking of myself as someone who suffers/suffered from physical abuse. The picture it brings up is one of the abusive bully husband slamming his fist on the dinner table demanding to know why dinner is late…..the wife wearing long sleeves to hide the bruises…etc. etc.
I only get a sense of what is going on when I look in the eyes of my friends when I tell them what has happened over the past 10 years since we got married. Then I see how they view it…… time and again they tell me my wife has some mental problems and should see someone …… and of course I start defending her saying “Oh it isn’t that bad…really she’s a very good person….” and they just look at me…..
Ever since we had children my wife could go off the handle for trivial matters….coming home 15 min later than I said….etc. but I always gave her a pass for this due to the hormones/stress/lack of sleep inherent in raising small children. She could become physically abusive….punching me, once kicking me in the stomach when I was sleeping on the ground after a fight….turning a plate of food over on my head in front of our then small children, throwing a phone at my head….burning me with frying pan oil I always felt that it was my job as the responsible one, to forgive this behaviour for the sake of the family….always thinking that it would pass…..
We ended up in counselling because of it…. she would always say that it was due to me not cleaning the house enough…. then it was I didn’t cook enough….etc. And I somehow thought that if I only I did these things that I could avoid the violence/blow ups….
But things changed when I was at home looking after the children (I live in a European country where fathers usually stay at home with children for about 6-10 months before they’re 2) and of course then I was doing most of the cooking/cleaning but things didn’t stop….
Of course it didn’t…… any kind of stress could do it…. we once ended up at the Psych Emergency Ward due to her anxiety over starting a new project at work…. perfectly normal to be anxious but she would start acting like a zombie, rocking back and forth in the middle of the night, crying, completely out of it…..
The penny dropped last Oct 2009. She had been away for a few days on a company off-site and I had been looking after the boys. We went to her sister’s birthday and I drove us there. At one point I lay on the sofa and snoozed for 15 min. Later she was stressed to get home because a friend of hers was coming over. In the car she suddenly launches into a tirade about how impolite I was sleeping on the sofa… how all her family thinks I’m rude…. (all not true… I rang her sister immediately afterwards and she was dumbstruck emphatically telling me that that wasn’t the case…). The children are listening from the back seat crying……tore me up big time….
And that’s when I realized that nothing I could do would prevent this behaviour.
I talked to our therapist who told me she acts as a teenager, and only blows up like this with people she trusts to take it….I am the “rock” that she can do this to…..she would never behave like this to a colleague or friend. When I told my wife this she countered saying “Well the therapist told me that you’re incapable of handling conflict because you grew up in a family that never argued!!”
OK ? And that’s a bad thing…
The last straw was when I drilled a hole in the wall and it brought about WW 3. She started kicking over my guitars….. I was sitting and got up ready to hit her or push her or something…. but by the time I was standing I was over it…. and told her to get out…. but she could see what I was thinking….
That was it for me….. I can take being hit but I will never accept being a person who could hit someone else…. not least the mother of my children….. I couldn’t live with myself….
These episodes literally have me in pieces for literally a week…. but she seems to always bounce back within a day saying “Are you still angry/upset over that …. come on get over it…..”
So divorce papers are in…. should be done by the end of the year… thank God I live in a country with no fault divorce and where both parents get joint custody 99% of the time…..
The tough part is that I really do see her as my soul mate…..there are so much that is good about her…..she is a great mother a great friend and work colleague…… I see these episodes as belonging to someone else….. but she never admits she has a problem….her ability to not remember what she herself has said is incredible…. one day recently she told me how great I was, the best person she has ever met…. 2 days later she’s threatening to ring my mother to tell her how evil I am………(neither version of me is true of course :-) )
thanks for listening/reading
An abusive man basher who sat next to me at work decided it was OK to hit me with rolled up papers. When I confronted her it became clear to everyone that she has serious issues with men, not just a lot of ‘feminist’ angst. Now she sits surrounded by women all day but retains her job. Truly any man who behaved in a similar fashion would not have a job.
My one experience with a truly *crazy* girl played out just like that video. She went berserk in public, no one even looked twice. Even when she pulled a knife out of her purse, no one (at least a dozen people saw it go down) bothered to intervene or even call the cops. I’ve still got the scars from the ensuing struggle (I’m not a big guy, 5’9″ and 140lbs, a 5’6″ raging woman isn’t an easy matchup).
The truly screwed up part happened after I got control, though. I pushed her away and ran like hell. I’m bleeding all over myself from the cuts on my chest and hands, and I get accosted by two random women for shoving her to the ground. One of the few times I was truly speechless.
This vid kinda reminds me of the classic tactic women love to employ, where they make their demands in public (restaurants, usually). They know we have to back down or risk looking like the overbearing boyfriend in the eyes of everyone else in the room. Of course, the last one who tried that didn’t expect me to tell her to go to hell and walk out in the middle of dinner *grin* (she’d spent the morning trying to break into my email and then demanded that I give her my passwords). Her number was on my ignore list before I got to my car, and the dozen BS apologetic phone calls the following week went straight to my voicemail and were promptly deleted.
Rudov has a lot of good stuff and can hold his own in debates. He hs some excellent rules for screening dates for entitlement issues.
I saw this program about female reactions to abuse. I was not surprised. Tyr telling people that women , overwhelmingly, kill more kids and abuse old folks. The studies show this. But, folks think you are nuts if you tell them.
When the abuser was a man the bystanders were “worried about her safety”. When the abuser is a woman the bystanders were “worried about their safety”. Interesting.
Huh, Dr. T., I sent that vid to my local “preventing violence in families” womens’ support center about 6 months ago. They claim that 94% of the victims of abuse are women and children. I need help, they’ve said they’d see me, but I guess I just don’t feel like carrying this whole “issue” with me.
I also found:
REFERENCES EXAMINING ASSAULTS BY WOMEN ON THEIR SPOUSES OR MALE PARTNERS:
AN ANNOTATED BIBLIOGRAPHY
Martin S. Fiebert
Department of Psychology
California State University, Long Beach
Last updated: July 2010
SUMMARY: This bibliography examines 273 scholarly investigations: 212 empirical studies and 61 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 365,000.
http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
I’ve been reading your blog for most of the afternoon. I’m the second wife of a man who was abused by his ex. For seven years, I’ve been hearing the stories of their marriage and I’ve seen firsthand what an abusive relationship can do. My husband’s ex wife was occasionally physically abusive and would often threaten to make a scene in order to get what she wanted. My husband has also lost contact with his daughters because of parental alienation. She quite effectively used religion as a tool to separate my husband from his kids. He hasn’t seen or spoken to them since 2004; they now call her third husband “daddy”.
Anyway, I decided to comment on this post because I find it so refreshing to see a woman who understands that abuse is not a gender issue. It’s not okay or “cute” for a woman to hit a man. I’m so glad you pointed this out. I’ve linked to your blog on Facebook and forwarded it to my husband who, unfortunately, has an acquaintance who is just now realizing that he’s in an abusive relationship. I’m hoping my husband will share this information with his friend.
Thanks for the good work you’re doing. It’s nice to see I’m not the only woman who understands that men can be victims, too.
Dr Tara what about this >> Male basihng in Tv Ads
“Throwing the guy out of the car is funny”, change the genders, and see if it´s still funny!