Home > relationships > 15 Warning Signs She’s a Psycho Chick

15 Warning Signs She’s a Psycho Chick


crazy for love1) She’s waiting for you outside your apartment door, uninvited, when you arrive from an evening out.

2) She owns more than 2 cats. (I’m being generous here. I think cats are reincarnated crazy women who committed suicide in their previous life. Two cats are a danger sign. I won’t date men who own cat(s); they’re crazier than their female counterparts–especially if they practice yoga).

3) Her previous boyfriends issued restraining warrants against her.

4) She invites you home to meet her family in under 30 days.

5) She shows up at all your favorite hangouts and pretends it’s a coincidence.

6) She systematically has sex with all your friends.

7) She contacts your ex-girlfriends to pump them for information.

8. She utters phrases like, “I don’t know what I’d do if we broke up,” “I wouldn’t want to live without you” or “the third time I was admitted to the ER for a suicide attempt.”

love overdrive9) Suicide Hotline is one of her T-Mo Faves.

10) Her medicine cabinet contains bottles of Lexepro, Abilify, and Zyprexa. They only prescribe Zyprexa to the really crazy ones.

11) She professes “No one’s ever understood me like you do” and “I’ve never felt this way with a man before” on the first date.

12) You wake up the morning after you have sex with her to discover that she’s carved her name onto your arm with a knife. THIS IS A TRUE STORY.

13) When you meet her parents, they look at you with sympathy and gratitude.

14) All of her ex-boyfriends have moved to other cities since ending the relationship–a kind of Ex-Boyfriend Protection Program.

15) SHE SAYS SHE JUST WANTS TO HAVE SEX, DOESN’T WANT A COMMITMENT AND YOU CAN CONTINUE TO SEE OTHER WOMEN. “I just want to be with you tonight. I don’t care about tomorrow.” Get your attorney on speed dial. Game over.

For a humorous, but scary male perspective, check out Dean Weigand’s piece on The Onion, I’m a F–ked Up Chick Magnet.

Updated on 02/06/09: Women who behave like this may be suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder. Since first publishing this post, I’ve received some incensed emails from BPD activists. BPD is a serious condition. However, for people who are coping with their girlfriend’s, wife’s, family member’s or friend’s hurtful and crazy behaviors, gallows humor is often a coping mechanism. If they can’t find an outlet or some humor in the situation, it makes the reality of their lives unbearable.

Furthermore, for all of you with BPD who want sympathy and support for your problems, I am writing this blog for men who are on the receiving end of the emotionally abusive aspects of your diagnosis. They’re entitled to help, understanding, and commiseration just like you. You have your online forums and chat rooms. These guys deserve equal time. These blogs aren’t for the “assholes who just use you for sex” (quote from a comment that hasn’t been approved yet). It’s for the men who are good guys who don’t deserve to be subjected to emotional abuse.

by Dr Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD

Private Consultation and Coaching

I provide confidential, fee-for-service, consultation/coaching services to help both men and women work through their relationship issues via telephone and/or Skype chat. My practice combines practical advice, support, reality testing and goal-oriented outcomes. Please visit Services and Products for professional inquiries.

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Photo credits:

Crazy in love by Season Moore on flickr.

Love overdrive by Jill Greenseth on flickr.

  1. Bryce
    February 23, 2009 at 7:36 pm

    Since this post was originally meant to be a FUN post, and we have already alienated most everyone who can be offended, I thought I would share this with you:

    It is a very tongue in cheek personal “ad” that I posted all over the country through craigslist last year. I was overwhelmed with responses, literally hundreds!

    Most were positive and found the humor in it, some were hateful, and I even got a few that thought I was serious!

    Hope it gives you a smile.

    “Put The FUN in Dysfunctional / Whats your Diagnoses – 50 (At The Bar)”

    I am a well-adjusted, professional male. I am honest, stable, loving, generous and kind. I am physically fit and considered attractive. I enjoy travel, fine dining and outdoor activities. And, alas, I am newly single.

    Usually at this juncture I would hit the singles bars, cruise ships and night clubs, spending a small fortune on travel, drinks and dinners looking for the next Ms. Right, just to end up with another disordered (yet attractive) woman who would eventually make me miserable.

    So this time I thought I would narrow the search and try here. Why waste time. I am looking for that “special” Lady to turn my world upside down.

    Although I have found that women with Cluster C personality traits (anxious, fearful and dependent) can cause a lot of damage, they are not near as much fun to be with, or cause as much pain and anguish, as those who suffer from the dramatic, erratic disorders. Lets face it! Emotional dysregulation without impulsive, deceitful, confusing and hurtful behavior is boring.

    I seem to be attracted to the Cluster B personality disordered (Narcissist, Borderline, Histrionic, Antisocial). Those very attractive, manipulative and seductive women, who can seem so normal (at first) on the surface, with very nice fake boobs, and with fake, shallow, personalities to match.

    You can get extra points if your level of self centered narcissism puts you in the category of the Antisocial (Sociopath / Psychopath). If you can lie, cheat, manipulate, and exploit others within a relationship with impunity to get what ever it is you want, lack empathy and a mature conscience, and feel no guilt or remorse for all of the pain and suffering you cause; You may be the one for me.

    My perfect “soul mate” will be older, between the ages of 30 and 50 because self centered, impulsive and inconsistent behavior in teens and very young adults can be normal. (You may actually grow up, and then where would we be?)

    You should have a history of many, many short-term marriages, affairs and relationships that ended horribly and involved infidelity, exploitation and deceit (on your part). If your ex-husbands, ex-boyfriends and others wont speak to you, yet you always seem to have a few F_ _ k buddies hanging around just in case, that would be a plus.

    You should already have a nice set of fake boobs. If you are not attractive enough or devious enough to have gotten some other sap to buy them for you by now, nor narcissistic enough to have bought them your self by now, you probably are not disordered enough for me.

    I have already bought all the boobs I am going to buy. However; cars, trips, houses and jewelry are still on the table.

    You should have mind boggling mood swings, narcissistic rages, and be prone to having impulsive sexual affairs with strangers, the handyman, coworkers etc: because it makes you “feel good” or better yet, to get something you “need”.

    Other traits that will endear me to you include, but are not limited to:

    )You actually have a diagnosis of a Cluster B personality disorder (This is rare. Not the disorder, just the diagnosis is rare).
    )You have been told you suffer from: Bi-Polar Disorder or Depression (You may, but those are the least of your problems).
    )You have attempted, or threatened suicide at some point.
    )You walked out of therapy in anger.
    )You have never been to therapy, but former partners often seek therapy to deal with the emotional damage you do to them.
    )You will not take any meds prescribed by your psychiatrist.
    )You view sex as a weapon to be used for reward and/or punishment.
    )You think everyone else is just like you, but better at hiding it.

    Ladies, if you think you have what it takes, please respond. After all, it’s all about you anyway! it won’t last long; We may as well have some fun!

    Your Pic gets mine.

    • Keith
      October 8, 2009 at 9:22 pm

      WOW that is the best one I have ever seen!! Mind if I use that on my profile?? I have to say i feel so so much more freed since I came across this sight ! Thankyou so much all of you !

    • Recovering Alpha
      January 19, 2010 at 10:10 pm

      Bryce

      Though months later reading this, I agree with Kieth. Wow! That really nails it. And does so with humor. Thanks for the light heartedness it produced in me.

  2. Bryce
    February 19, 2009 at 1:46 am

    Yes, the religious overtones do get a little thick.

    Being an analytical person by nature, and a scientist by training, I have struggled with that aspect myself.

    But I have to say, that it is all very interesting how she relates bible verse to dealing with narcissist and other difficult people.

    I think she is responding to a lot of critisism from those who say that christianity teaches that we should never give up on the narcissist.

    It has prompted me to do a little research myself. Wether it is the word of God, or just men, there is a lot of wisdom there.

    My favorite I have found is:

    “It is betterto dwell in the wilderness , than with a contentious and an angry woman” (Proverbs 21:19)

    Now that is wisdom :)

    B

    • shrink4men
      February 19, 2009 at 2:49 am

      Amen to that!

      I appreciate your humor, Bryce. Thank you.

      Turning the other cheek is a christian concept that I’ve found to be highly ironic. Especially since it’s usually the christian NPD who is telling you to turn the other cheek so that they can land their punch more easily.

      Dennis Miller, an American comedian, said something back in the 90s that rang true for me: “You can’t save everyone. Just pray you’re not living next door to them when they decide to go off.”

      Good to hear from you, B.

    • Keith
      November 18, 2009 at 11:19 pm

      Proverbs 4:23 Guard your heart above all else , for it determines the course of your life. I believe every man on this sight wishes he would have gaurded his own heart more and took better care of it while he was with the bpd or npd in his life. I know I do! I regret so much, overlooking the red flags and forgiving things I never ever should have. I think we are just to(Damn) nice and want to believe people are good deep down inside. In the end I was the one who ended up being (bent over)If you dont guard your own heart from these crazy women who will?

  3. Bryce
    February 12, 2009 at 8:14 pm

    Hey Doc; someone needs to wave the red cape. I feel the same way. I applaud you for taking this stand.

    I think that all bullies have disordered personalities along the narcissistic (NPD) continuum. And I also view all bullies as predators.

    (Google ” narcissist suck” if you want an eyeful of material on bullies and emotional abuse).

    I believe that all abuse, whether overt or covert is about control.

    It’s how they get what they want. The only thing that differentiates them is their style, and their desires (i.e. What they want)

    Exposure is their worst fear. That is why they go to such great lengths to lie, distort, and hide who they really are. And why they get so angry when they are exposed.

    In nature, all predators rely on stealth and camouflage to get close to their victims. Only human predators prey on their own kind.

    They will do the dirtiest things to you and then demand that you act like it didn’t happen. If you don’t, then you are a mean, unforgiving person.

    Let them fume.

    People like me can get on these types of blogs and write and rant and give our opinions, but you are different. You have the credentials and experience to articulate these issues with credibility.

    Society, and individuals, need more of this, and not more of the Oprah-ized, watered down, I’m OK you’re OK, feel good pop psychology that is out there.

    Just my two cents. I got your back.

    • shrink4men
      February 13, 2009 at 3:01 am

      As always, thanks, Bryce. I Googled Narcissists Suck. Good stuff. I could’ve done without the religious overtones, but otherwise the writer has some very keen insights into NPD.

      NPDs are something else. You’re right on the money with your explanation of their retaliatory nature when exposed. As for Oprah, she’s pretty clear that abuse, in any form, is not OK. She re-aired an episode yesterday about why men cheat, which wasn’t a man-bashing show. She had on a therapist who placed some of the responsibility on the wives for not making their husbands feel valued. She took a lot of heat for that from some of her female audience when it first aired in September (or maybe it was October). I was pleasantly surprised.

      I buffed out my earlier comment in reply to your last one as a blog post this afternoon. Thanks for the inspiration!

      Kind Regards,
      Dr T

  4. shrink4men
    February 12, 2009 at 5:40 pm

    Thanks, Bryce. Very well said, but then I have my own biases, too. I’ve been considering the feedback posted in this comment thread and elsewhere.

    I’ve received a minor bit of flack from people who are on the periphery of my life for the material I’ve written here. A friend described my blog as “waving a red cape in front of a raging bull.” The friend also pointed out that I have a pattern of doing this.

    This was hard feedback to receive. It felt a little bit like blaming the victim. I considered the criticism, held the mirror up to myself and saw this aspect. This is part of my nature. I provoke bullies, because I want to expose them for what they are. I make myself a target by doing this.

    Even though I didn’t like seeing this, I didn’t get mad at the mirror for what I saw. I didn’t denounce the mirror as “irresponsible,” “tasteless,” or “cruel.” I didn’t break the mirror or cover it up to deny what I saw. I looked into it and said, “Yep, that’s right.”

    There’s something in my psychology that compels me to say, “This is wrong. The emperor’s naked. We’re not the crazy ones. You are. Stop it.” It goes back to my childhood. I had a parent with NPD traits who was a bully. I couldn’t speak the truth for my entire childhood for fear of setting him off.

    And that’s why the emotionally abusive professional victims/bullies don’t like what I write. It’s not their highly controlled and distorted spin on the truth. It’s the truth as I see it and as many people who have been bullied and hurt by these people see it.

    The worst thing you can do when you’re involved with an abusive person, at work or at home, is to speak the truth. You get brutalized for it and they gun for you all the harder. It’s like the schoolyard bully who takes your milk money and then threatens to beat you up if you tell anyone.

    So, in order to keep the peace and get along, should the rest of us surrender our “milk money,” or our truth or our well being, so we don’t set the bully off and get beaten up? I don’t know. Maybe.

    I’ve been on the receiving end of emotional bullies, professional victims, BPDs, NPDs, or whatever guise they come in more times than I can count. I believe this is because I recognize them for what they are (based on my experiences as a child), which is one of the reasons I’m usually their target for attack.

    I used to try my best not to set the other person off by disagreeing with them, having a better idea than them, or by pointing out that they were being hurtful and unfair. It made me physically ill and depressed after a while.

    Maybe I should write funny, non-inflammatory relationship advice, but that feels inauthentic. What I’d like to do is encourage those of us who just smile and swallow it, to collectively stand up for each other and say, “This is wrong. The emperor’s naked. We’re not the crazy ones. You are. Stop it.”

    It’s scary to do this, but half of the United States just did it last November. I’m hoping this trend continues into people’s personal and work lives.

    Dr T

  5. Bryce
    February 12, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    I confess. It was I who used the term “Borderline Bitch” in the post referred to by Kiera.

    (It was actually the search term I used to find this blog)

    I did so specifically to find a blog such as this. As Dr. T has stated, gallows humor is healing to victims of emotional abuse.

    It took a very long time for me to get to the point that I could find any humor in my experience with these disorders.

    What Dr.T offers here is another, and I think necessary, healing step in a long and painful journey of recovery for anyone who has been traumatized by a relationship with someone with a cluster B disorder, BPD’s included.

    The fact that she has specifically tailored her comments and advice for men is especially refreshing to me, as this is not common in the on-line community dealing with emotional abuse or relationship advice.

    I am very familiar with some of the resources that Kiera listed, especially those provided by Randi Kreger.

    Back in the dark old days, when I first began to try and make sense of the insanity, I spent untold hours participating in the online forum once owned and operated by her.

    (By the way, that forum still exists, and googling “Borderline Personality Disorder” will take you there post haste)

    While I commend the intentions, efforts and dedication of people like Kiera and Amanda regarding BPD education from the afflicted perspective, seeking out and then lashing out in a forum such as this only serves to invalidate the experience of the victims, and puts us back in the position of “walking on eggshells”.

    Talk about being “triggered”. I can assure you, many of us have had enough of that.

    The reality of BPD, and related disorders (It is not by accident that BPD is clustered along with NPD, HPD, and AsPD) is that most with these disorders go undiagnosed and untreated.

    Left untreated BPD’s do not get better, they get worse. And they leave a trail of untold pain and misery in their wake for anyone unfortunate enough to get close enough to them to get ensnared in that horrible dynamic.

    I highly recommend that anyone newly traumatized by an emotionally abusive relationship visit those resources, learn all you can about BPD and related disorders. Share your experience with others in the same stage of recovery.

    Then when you are ready, come back here for a laugh at yourself, a different perspective, and some good solid advice.

    Like my Mom used to say: “It’s all fun and games until someone get’s their eye poked out”.

    Bryce

  6. Barry Jernigan, Pres. NCFM-KY/TN
    February 11, 2009 at 2:23 am

    After reading what Kiera wrote (a supposedly professional woman) I frankly wonder if the reason for some of the misandrist official policies is because the women who are responsible for creating them do so because they are mentally ill and ‘can’t help’ their hatred of men.

    So it makes me wonder if THAT might actually be a contributing factor to the reason that men who are victims of domestic violence are refused assistance particularly by the domestic violence associations and shelters.

    Or the reason that men are consistently arrested on false charges and end up being charged with whatever the woman falsely charged them with and end up being punished for it as well. The psycho girlfriend calls the psycho lady cop who arrests him and turns him over the to the psycho lady judge who finds him ‘guilty’ just as his psycho girlfriend said. ;-)

    Or why guys who are victims of paternity fraud are also often dealt an unfair deal.

    Between the chivalrous mentalilty of the men in authority and the possibly borderline women some men might not stand a chance.

    And yes I am (partly) being tongue in cheek. But it makes me wonder all the same.

    Note the large number of professional women (Katie Couric, Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden’s sister, Cynthia McKinney, Zsa Zsa Gabor, etc, etc, etc) who definitely have problems controlling their violent behavior — especially to men. And it makes me kind of wonder how many psycho women are movers and shakers dictating terms and conditions to the men of this nation.

    And for the record, as I stated before, my mother is in this category. She physically abuses my stepfather. He has sleep apnea and on two occasions she has grabbed his face in that mask because the machine makes noise. These people are in their 60s. He has complained about it but she just justifies her behavior. And what can be done about it? She’s a grown person. We would have to prove that she was incompetent. She would never believe that she needs help.

    I wonder what it is that Kiera expects a man (especially if he’s not married to her) to do to ‘help’ a woman who is psychotic and I frankly doubt that she believes that a woman has the same ‘obligation’ to help her psycho boyfriend. The advice that is most often given to women is to ‘get away from that creep’. WOMEN consistently make negative comments about men who are psychotic so I don’t know where Kiera comes off being so offended by what is often common language among women. Where is her criticism of women for being insenstive about men? Or hell where is her criticism about a system that consistently treats men like dirt?!

    We now have an ex-police officer from NYPD at the NCFM and boy are WE getting an education. Even cops claim their hands are tied and they can only stand by helplessly as even cops are victimized by the misandrist system. Again, how many of the women in charge of this system may actually suffer from BPD and other psychoses. Now it really makes me wonder….

    Barry Jernigan, President
    National Coalition For Men
    Kentucky/Tennessee Chapter
    investigating the dv industry in our states and the problem is worse than we think and no sign it will get better anytime soon

    • shrink4men
      February 11, 2009 at 4:50 am

      Hi Barry,

      I can’t speak for Kiera, but I don’t think her comment implied misandrist sentiments. It fed into the stereotype that men are sex-crazed jerks and castigated anyone who isn’t 100% sympathetic to BPDs, but I don’t think she hates all men. Plus, she attacked me and I’m a woman.

      Violence against anyone, whether the perpetrator is male or female, is unacceptable. I agree with you in that I think the system can be unfair and negatively biased toward men, although, I don’t think the system hates men either. Unfortunately, it’s a reaction to the decades in which women basically had no rights nor protection from husbands who beat them. I used to work at a DV shelter and physical abuse against women is very real.

      I’m aware that there are some sick women who make false allegations of abuse against men. For example, to punish an ex in divorce or a break up, they claim he hit them or hit or molested the kid(s). Even when the allegations are proven false, these men still have to deal with the stigma of the allegations. The system should take extreme measures against women who do this to act as a deterrent. Usually they have a therapist testify on their behalf, they’re scolded and have to attend therapy. Meanwhile, the guy’s reputation is trashed. That, in and of itself, is an act of psychological violence.

      There should be more public assistance programs for men who are physically and emotionally abused by their partners. Unfortunately, a lot of people don’t take men who report abuse by women seriously. Or the men who are actively being abused are too embarrassed to admit it’s taking place.

      In my opinion there is a double standard that takes place in these cases. Men who are involved with abusive women are told to be sympathetic, patient and understanding of these women’s crazy and hurtful behaviors to the detriment of their well being. This is one of the reasons I started this blog. Abuse is abuse no matter which gender is dishing it out and which gender is on the receiving end. We tell women to get themselves out of abusive relationships. We should tell men the same thing.

      As for Zsa Zsa and Katie, I’m afraid I don’t have anything to offer. Thanks again for reading and commenting.

      Best,
      Dr T

  7. February 10, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    Hello all,

    i spent a fretful night trying to make sense of all the postings and the progression of emotions that have gone along with them. As I said before, it is a triggering topic and one that i encounter very often. Also, i apologize for my language–the tone was kind of set for me when i read the term “borderline bitch” in a previous posting (bitch is a swear word too….) But i was angry and so the use of my words carried hostility.

    It looks like i have merely proven that once a borderline always a borderline. Funny thing is, when I’m around people like NEA, NEPDA and NAMI, I don’t swear or behave like this.

    It probably has something to do with the way they talk about people with BPD– they have a ton of training and have worked through their anger and grief. They aren’t at a place where calling someone a “borderline bitch” or a “psycho chick” is funny. They understand that many people with the disorder die because they’re in so much pain, there is not other way out, and it’s not just all drama and attention seeking.

    I wish I could stay emotionally balanced and continue this exchange because it has a lot to offer but i don’t have the stamina or skills. There is an awful lot of damage do to each other, with or without disgnoses. I am sorry if i furthered that in any way.

    I hope the resources I shared in a previous post will be helpful to anyone who wants to get more support for BPD beyong online blogs, and i wish you the best in your healing and growth.

    Best,
    Kiera

  8. February 9, 2009 at 8:31 pm

    Still don’t see the demonizing or hostility. Only person being hostile was you dropping F-bombs. Dr. T was conveying classic BPD symptomology and brought humor to an issue without personally attacking any individual person, which you later did. Personally, I’m fine with that b/c that’s what BPD sufferers do sometimes.

    However…

    If anyone should be critically viewed, it should be someone who just displayed classic BPD symptoms (lashing out / apologizing) yet simultaneously wants to be viewed as an authority in the field. I may be shooting from the hip here, but I’m sure the folks at NEPDA wouldn’t be pleased with that verbal attack.

    I realize you’re uber sensitive on the issue Kiera, but have you ever heard the phrase “laughter is the best medicine”. I find the best places to heighten public awareness where we all feel comfortable about vocalizing our opinions. If the article made you feel uncomfortable, I would have loved to hear what a real BPD patient/sufferer felt about the article, maybe even said what parts were true and what parts were false. On the ground, real life data is what we want after all.

    This isn’t group therapy b/c it’s a blog, but you would likely have been asked to leave the group if this was real life. Wow – I sounded way too much like Dr. Drew there.

    Perhaps it would be constructive to take a Sent Ts’an type of approach where you implement the “Neither For Nor Against” approach to the debate. It helps you stay independent like I try to be — it’s not easy, but it helps in staying objective.

    I just want awareness to be raised and everyone to get along, and verbally slamming your opponents counterarguments will only push you further away from the calm, rational tone of voice an authority figure should be required to have.

    • shrink4men
      February 9, 2009 at 10:50 pm

      BPD has been a source of controversy for a long time now, so the high emotion expressed in this comment thread isn’t a surprise.

      What I find surprising is that this is the post that caused some readers to be up in arms. It’s labeled as “humor.” I’ve written far more entries on this blog that explain the effects of emotional abuse, the professional victim who’s really a bully, the cycle of emotional abuse, etc. I’m not dispensing therapy here; I’m dispensing information and a different perspective.

      Matt makes an excellent point about laughter being the best medicine. When I was in practice, many of the men I treated were emotionally beaten down, traumatized, numb, and in pain. I knew they were going to be ok when they could finally laugh again–at themselves, at the absurdity and insanity of their relationships, and about how twisted their realities had become. Laughter was the first sign that they were regaining perspective.

      Everyone has their own truth. However, if you’re going to adopt a self-righteous stance about making fun of difficult situations, being dismissive, stigmatizing and stereotyping, your argument loses credibility when you do the very same thing of which you accuse others.

      The items on this list are real life occurrences I encountered in my professional work. In fact, part of the work was educating my former patients that these aren’t normal behaviors and that they were in unhealthy relationships. Not that they should be compassionate of these behaviors and become more hypervigilant to setting off the person who’s out of control. It’s like saying, “He only beats you when he’s drunk and he drinks because he had a terrible childhood, so cut him some slack.” It just doesn’t fly.

  9. February 9, 2009 at 7:21 pm

    I am sorry my comments came off as offensive, negative and profane. Obviously I was triggered by the “15 warning signs she’s a psycho chick”.

    You probably (or do) know of how much of this I encounter day to day as i am “out” about having the disorder.

    I agree with Bryce that there is a continuum to the disorder and there is a lot of lumping BPD into anti-social and narcissistic pds.

    Obviously if a person gets behind the wheel and kills or injures someone, as often happens in matters of addiction, intervention and legal action is necessary.

    I agree there are millions of people who are victims and people are perpetrators. I work hard to help both, and get angry when there is mockery (psychi-chick etc etc) when there is no education or resopurces provided, as this blog posting did not provide.

    As someone with BPD, I am the only consumer on the boardo f the New Enlgand Personality Disorder Association (NEPDA) which is a BPD family support organization. I promote Randi of walking on eggsheels and I am a frequent presenter at the national education alliance for for borderline personlaity disorder (NEABPD) conferences.

    Instead of ranting again, i offer the following:

    There are many treatments showning promise for BPD besides DBT:

    STEPPS; TFP; Mentalization to name a few. again, the NEABPD website has videos on these that are worth watching.

    There are also programs and support groups for people in and out of BPD relationships:

    NEA BPD’s family connections
    NAMI’s Family-to-family
    Randi Kreger’s books with specific tools to help.

    Again, i am critical of you Dr. T. sorry, maybe i’m just a borderline on the attack. But if a therpist’s main goal is to validate people’s pain by mocking and demonizing a stigmatized population with mental illness, i don’t think the people will benefit long term. The warm fuzzies of being understood in the bubble of anger is often critical for healing and there *should* be forums for people to be angry, grieve and let go of traumatic relationships.

    But public blogs are likely to incense people with BPD–and maybe even like doing that to prove a point? hence, fathering the polarizartion…

    so it’s true, unfortunately I don’t see this place I would refer men to who have been malreated in BPD relationships–and i do a lot of referrals. I will continue to refer people to Randi Kreger and NEA BPD and NEPDA, where the education awareness and ability to recognize both sides of the experience dies not trigger me, not do i think promote ongoing hositility to those with the disorer.

    I do apologize for using the word “dick” or any other offensive language.

    Best,
    Kiera

  10. shrink4men,
    February 8, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    I’m moved by your words, Bryce. Thank you.

    I realized when I began this blog last month that I’d probably end up stepping on some people’s toes. Most of us don’t like being called on our bad behavior, especially the cluster Bs. In fact, I’ve been researching bullying behavior the last week in depth, and unmasking them makes them bully you all the more. There are so many levels and ways to approach the continuum you describe above, which adds to the confusion of men and women who are on the “receiving end.”

    There’s another woman, who in response to something I wrote on A Shrink for Men, wrote a particularly nasty and mocking THREE-PAGE blog entry on her own site. She makes personal attacks about my photo, my personality, my writing style, and my intellect. At first, I was laughing as I read it because it’s so off the mark. The further I went into her post, the crazier it got and I stopped laughing. It’s an example of how crazy and potentially vindictive, spiteful, and dangerous these women can be.

    So Amanda and Kiera are right, BPD and the other cluster Bs are no laughing matter. For those of us who have “been on the receiving end” it’s helpful and healthy to find a way to laugh through the pain. It’s part of the healing process. Which brings me to another observation. A telltale sign of many of the cluster B personalities is that they don’t get humor–at least not the way most of us do.

    I can handle negative, profane feedback, especially when readers, like yourself, Graham, and Matt SF, speak out here.

    Thank you kindly, Bryce.

    Best,
    Dr T

  11. Bryce
    February 8, 2009 at 1:10 pm

    I also have much empathy for the perspective and experiences that prompted Kiera’s and Amanda’s response.

    I have a lot of compassion for anyone who is self aware enough to seek help, and is struggling with a diagnoses of BPD. I wish you well.

    However; I think it is important to point out that one only need to read Dr.T’s tag line to understand to whom, and to what, she is writing this blog.

    “A blog for professional men in complicated relationships and dissatisfying careers combining psychology, insight, humor, irony, sexuality, and social commentary.”

    I, for one, appreciate her efforts. It matters little to the victims of abuse that the abuse was intentional or not. It feels the same on the receiving end.

    The validation and insight that Dr.T presents here is valuable to anyone who has suffered abuse, she has just chosen to direct her help towards men for reasons stated elsewhere in her blogs.

    I agree with Kiera that googling Borderline Personality Disorder may not be the best of advise for someone AFFLICTED with BPD, but it is very sound advise for anyone (male or female) on the receiving end of the abusive behaviors.

    I can honestly say that googling BPD saved my sanity once upon a time.

    For what it is worth, as I am not a mental health professional, and this is just my opinion (Based on my experiences, and a few years of studying these disorders), I think that all of the Cluster B disorders, including BPD, exist on a continuum of severity.

    I believe that the severity of impairment, the level of abusive behaviors, and the potential for self awareness in those with Cluster B disorders depends greatly on the extent that the person exhibits Narcissistic/Antisocial Personality traits.

    My personal experience was with a woman who most would view as self confident, successful, and intelligent. She was (is) also very attractive.

    In hindsight, I can say that she occasionally exhibited many of the BPD traits and behaviors described in this blog over our 5 year relationship. Especially the “I hate you, don’t leave me” type of behaviors.

    But as I was to find out, this was only the tip of the iceberg with her, and I doubt that BPD alone is an explanation for all of her behaviors.

    For Kiera: I am sure there are many abusive, self centered men out there as you describe (They give off red flags also), But you probably won’t find many of them here.

    Having BPD certainly wouldn’t insulate one from being abused. The best any of us can do is educate ourselves to the traits and signal behaviors that abusive personality types exhibit, and protect ourselves accordingly.

    Thank you Dr. T for articulating so well, what many men would like to express about their relationship experiences with abusive women, and validating our feelings. Please keep up the good work.

    B

    • Ellen
      September 19, 2009 at 7:31 pm

      I’m glad you got out, Bryce. And I agree about personality disorders existing on a continuum. The most severe — most of the ones being discussed in this forum — will not respond to treatment. They’d never consider going to treatment because it’s YOUR fault, not theirs. I’m happy there is a place where the male victims of these women can go and receive validation of their feelings and know they’re not alone and no, they’re not the crazy ones. But in true borderline fashion…the borderlines will come here to cross boundaries, knowing full well this site is not intended for them, but here they are… Being abused as a child, while unacceptable and awful, does not give one the right to perpetuate that abuse on one’s spouse and children by holding them emotionally hostage. It gives you the right to seek help and make changes so you can lead a happy, healthy, productive life and take back the power your abuser took from you.

  12. shrink4men
    February 6, 2009 at 8:55 pm

    Wow. Thanks, Matt. Thank you for sharing your experience in the area. I know how difficult it can be.

    Actually, I had an internal debate about whether or not to publish Kiera’s comment, but I decided to let it speak for itself. Seems like you read her message loud and clear.

    Thank you,
    Dr T

  13. February 6, 2009 at 8:44 pm

    I can empathize with Kiera’s situation b/c I grew in a BPD environment, so I know the difficulties.

    But before you try smacking me down or demonizing me for thinking with my phallus, I was one of the kids who got ran down in the street by a pill popping BPD parent.

    I hate this constant “you must love me – don’t just tolerate me” vibe some people still insist upon getting from the silent majority that really just wants to go about their business without being sucked into the drama. It’s a retro 90s feel good theme that still lingers like a bad fart in the room and makes everyone uncomfortable… except the person who farted.

    But for the life of me, I don’t see how she can ridicule a blog that promotes education and raise public awareness by Google’ing a serious condition… even if it promotes humor with a tongue in cheek tone of voice.

    I would add that humor is often the best sugar coating we can get in combating a sensitive subject matter at the sociological or mass media level. Ever seen the Carlos Mencia show? It’s hilarious but simultaneously pokes fun at racism. Why? Because it’s one of the best ways of reaching an audience. So if I suddenly woke up with a second evil head or a sixth finger, you can bet I would be on Google looking for an answer.

    I think it’s socially irresponsible of her to come off this way. We’re all just trying to get along here. Perhaps it’s an ideology that she doesn’t agree with, and decided to smack it down. Such things happen upon differences of fervent opinions, but I could have done without her negativity and profanity. If you want to be a taken as an authority in the field, giving the perception of fanaticism is less than helpful. In fact, a less reputable blogger would have censured her comments as rubbish, so I appreciate the open dialogue.

    Fact is, those 15 tips are all warning signs clinicians look for. Just b/c it’s hurtful for a therapist to speak the truth for a very small minority, doesn’t mean we should suppress the truth for masses.

  14. February 6, 2009 at 5:09 pm

    As a former crazy psycho chick with BPD, i’ve love to add a few pointers

    1) Any responsible professional who intends to educate about BPD should include good, scientifically based and professional resources on the disorder after sharing the horror laundry list that everyone loves to chew on.

    Telling a person to google “borderline personality disorder” is possibly the least helpful thing a person can say to others needing help, education or a proper perspective on BPD.

    2) BPD symptoms are often triggered in situations in which others are dismissive, callous, game-playing, only in it for the sex themselves, narcissitic and generally lacking the skills themselves to validate and unserstand another person’s perspective Which is to say, a lot of people exacerbate the conditions in which women with BPd freak out.

    Having dated for many years, I will day that most of the male population prefer to use women for sex than to have honest committed relationships to them. i constantly set myself up for rejection and then have to manage the fall out. for every 5 guys I date, only one does not try to get me to sleep with him on the first date.

    Many people like to read blogs that castigate psycho chicks rather than about learning and developing compassion and understanding. Also MANY men have BPD only they end up in prison. It is rare that people go after the male BPDs in the way people go after females. after all, we are supposed to be nice and care about people. men are expected to be assholes… so it’s important to get some perspective.

    3) Most women with BPD have been severely traumatized in childhood, usually from sexual and emotional abuse. Their brains are hard wired differently when it comes to attachments, perceptions of rejection or criticism, ability to control impulses, and have rational thinking in times of stress, espeically when the things they value are possibly threatened or lost–even if they’ve only been close to someone for a day. Men, stop having sex with women just because your dick says so, and lern who your dating. Then when you meet a woman with BPD, you can not create the conditions for the psycho to come out.

    My best relationships are the ones in which no sex was involved and trust developed slowly. Use a woman for sex who has BPD and you are half the equation in the dynamic. It’s not a one way thing. Try being responsible with your own behavior and it will help those of us who suffer with this, and point us in the direction of help–try your best not to mock, hate, use and dismiss us. Which is just a recreation of the original conditions in which this horrible disorder develops.

    4) Recognizing these things will go a long way towards not further fucking up these women and taking care of yourself. We are people desperate for love who biologically have wires crossed and actually push people into rejecting us. It’s a circle of hell that hurts everyone. and that cuircle of hurt widens whenever you dismiss, stigmatize, hate, mock and in general continue treating people with BPD like lepers. Where we go but into the arms of another hapless person. It’s like throwing a wildly drunken man into the street with oncoming traffic.

    5) Compassion, awareness, education, provinig boundaries, looking at the person with BPD as having an illness who needs treatment rather than a social leper who should be shunned, will help many people.

    Professional who use scare tactics and and demonize BPD individuals hurt not only others, but their reputation as viable therapists and healers.

    6) it should be recognized that people with BPD do get better. Only the disorder is so hated, that when people get better, they never tell anyone they had it. I wish more people could publicly declare this truth, as it takes an an awful lot of work for thoseof us in recovery to fight the stigma. We are still often unstable, insecure and hurting, yet we work our asses off to not damage ourselves or others. we have to read about the hate and then try to educate others about the reality of recovery and the underlying baisis ob BPD as a biologically-based illness.

    I hope you can understand this other perspectve. I try very hard to understand yours.

    Sincerely,
    Kiera Van Gelder
    middle-path.org

    • shrink4men
      February 6, 2009 at 7:31 pm

      This is a reply to Kiera:

      You raise some valid points. However, I’m not writing this blog for the “assholes” who use women with BPD for sex. I’m not writing for men who “think with their dicks” (speaking of stereotypes). I’m writing for men who, for whatever reason, became involved with women who are emotionally abusive because of their diagnoses, be it BPD, NPD, HPD or APD, other mental health issues, or substance abuse.

      For every person with BPD who is working hard to get their symptoms under control, there are hundreds more who blindly leave a trail of hurt, confused, and traumatized men in their wake. One of my male readers who is in recovery from a relationship with a woman with BPD, describes himself and men like him as “the walking dead.”

      Yes, it’s helpful to understand the biological bases and emotional neglect/abuse histories of BPD sufferers when they were children, but it doesn’t stop the hurt that they cause others now that they’re adults. So while I have compassion and understand there are reasons why people with BPD behave the way they do, the “why” does not negate the painful consequences, intentional or unintentional, that their behaviors have upon those who are in relationships with them.

      You use the comparison of throwing a drunken man into oncoming traffic. Ok. What if a person has a bad day, drinks too much, gets behind the wheel and kills or cripples another motorist? I feel sorry for the drunk driver who will have to carry the guilt of their actions, but I have more compassion for the person who was run down, no matter how much pain the drunk driver was experiencing at the time. Additionally, requiring men to learn how not to trigger BPD reactions in their partner puts the responsibility for the BPD’s behavior on the wrong person. This is an example of blaming the victim and it’s emotionally abusive.

      I invite men who aren’t “assholes who think with their dicks” to share your experiences here. I’m writing for you.

      Thanks for reading and commenting.

      Best,
      Dr T

      • Ellen
        September 19, 2009 at 7:21 pm

        Amen, Dr. T.! This site is not for those with BPD. They have their own sites. This one is for the (mostly) men suffering in silence at the hands of these abusive women. All the so-called “clinical” sites seem to do is place the responsibility for the borderline’s behavior (management) on the spouse. Does anyone really want to spend the next 40 years “managing” their spouse?? DBT is the most successful treatment currently — but don’t confuse it with being very successful or a cure, Kiera. Sure, there are some BPs who improve and can even lead good lives. But they are the exception rather than the rule. Most continue to bumble through their lives leaving a wake of destruction in their paths. Because in order for DBT to be successful, the borderline has to admit there IS a problem, HER problem, want help, accept help — even when the responsibility is on her, STAY in treatment when told things she doesn’t care to hear, etc. And sadly, most BPs are unable to do any one of the above, let alone all of the things above and more required for DBT to be of help.

        • shrink4men
          September 20, 2009 at 1:47 pm

          Hi Ellen,

          Thanks for the positive feedback. For the most part, I agree with you about clinical sites. It’s also one of the main problems I have with “Walking on Eggshells.” Managing a partner’s behavior is exhausting and can become a prison. Some people say it’s worth it. It’s an individual choice, but I sure wouldn’t want to do it.

          Kind Regards,
          Dr Tara

    • truthseekertruethinker
      March 29, 2010 at 9:16 pm

      Having been involved with a BPD in a long term relationship, I can see the internal thought process of a BPD all over Kiera’s post:

      1) Dr T is bad, I’m good.
      2) If only you would change or work harder, I would be different.
      3) (a) I’m good, your bad (b) If only you would change or work harder, I would be different (c) You deserve my abuse for how horrible you are.
      4) If only you would change or work harder, I would be different.
      5) (a) I am entitled to deferential treatment (b) Dr T. is bad.
      6) (a) There is no problem. (b) If you would change or work harder, I would be different. (c) There is no problem. (d) If you would change or work harder, I would be different. (e) Look at how much I do for you. (f) I’m a victim, no one caused this. It’s just a part of nature accept it. (g) There is a problem and it cannot be cured via corrective experience. (YIKES!)

      The final remark also wreaks of “You need to work harder, look how much I have done for you.”

      I realize that some of these people are in recovery and that’s awesome. But how recoverable are these people?

      If everything is seen through the BPD’s poop tinted glasses, how can these people be come to the 1st step of admitting they have a problem? Admitting that you have a problem and admitting that you have a disorder seem to me to be two different things entirely.

      I hate to think of a group of BPD’s ratifying a set of rules for the rest of us that reflects the internal dialog of a BPD.

    • Rick_A
      June 12, 2013 at 3:05 pm

      Ok, I do NOT mean this to be cruel and extreme, BUT to make a point, many serial killers deserve sympathy also, many have horrible emotional dysfuntion as a result of abuse and horrible childhoods, so we should never talk about their victims and only show the serial killer sympathy?

      Fact is, BPD is horrible for everyone, and I think you’ll find their vicitims are double victims, because most well ajusted, emotional healthy people will NOT get involved with or leave early an BPD partner. The BPD victims only tolerate their abuse because that is all they have known their whole life.

      So don’t be so defensive, part of recovering from BPD is accepting accountability for your actions, it may be a disease, but it doesn’t change the fact that you did horrible things to people that didn’t deserve it.

      And Sorry, I disagree, despite your experience, totally inocent people tirgger BPD rages with utterly benighn things and suffer unfairly the BPD’s wrath. NOT all BPD’s victim are assholes that deserved it anyway, they more often are totally innocent people that didn’t do anything in anyway to deserve it. Again, you are avoiding accountability for your own actions.

  15. February 6, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    As the director of Florida Borderline Personality Disorder Association, I’d like to point out that BPD is a severe mental illness that is highly treatable given effective psychotherapy, education about the disorder, and support from friends and family members.

    There are so many myths and stereotypes about BPD and we believe that these inaccuracies only add to the stigma (and self-stigma) surrounding the illness and, sadly, prevent people from seeking the help they need. It should go without saying that 99% of those diagnosed with BPD do not display the “15 Warning Signs She’s a Psycho Chick.”

    Unfortunately, the completion rate of suicide in this population is between 8 and 10%. Suicidal ideation, threats, and attempts should be taken very seriously.

    • shrink4men
      February 6, 2009 at 5:21 pm

      This is a reply to Amanda L. Smith:

      I agree. Men who are involved with Borderline Personality Disordered women should take the illness, whether it’s diagnosed or undiagnosed, very seriously. Particularly since many of these men will develop Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder symptoms as a result of the emotionally abusive Borderline behaviors.

      In fact, dispelling the myths and the emotional brainwashing that people who are on the receiving end of the crazy behaviors are fed is one of the main reasons I’m writing this blog. While the diagnoses of BPD, NPD, or APD explain why people with these disorders do the crazy hurtful things they do, it does not excuse them.

      The cluster B diagnoses are not highly treatable. Many men and women who are in traditional psychotherapies use their diagnoses to justify hurting others. “I can’t help it that I behave this way.” Of course, this depends on the individual and the severity of their symptoms. The only form of therapy that’s shown any effectiveness is DBT, but it doesn’t cure the disorder. At best, it teaches people with BPD to manage their symptoms.

      Sometimes psychopharm is helpful, again, depending on the individual. However, there’s a high degree of medication non-compliance in these populations. In practice, psychiatrists put them on on mood stabilizers or antipsychotics that would knock an elephant on its butt. These women don’t like the side effects (blunting of affect, weight gain, no more manic buzz) and take themselves off the meds.

      The suicidal gestures some BPD sufferers make are usually attention seeking acts or intended to emotionally blackmail or guilt trip their families or partners. The successful suicides are often the result of miscalculating how many pills to take or their boyfriend or husband getting stuck in traffic and not arriving in time to call 911. No one should have to feel responsible for another person’s crazy behaviors or possible suicide.

      As for this blog post, I can think of more than one real life example that male friends or patients have experienced. Granted, some of them are extreme, but sometimes that’s how it manifests.

      Thanks for reading and commenting.

  16. February 6, 2009 at 5:54 am

    Hey in defense of crazy ladies everywhere, they are usually great in the sack!

    I plead the 5th how I know this.

    • shrink4men
      February 6, 2009 at 4:21 pm

      This is a reply for Matt SF:

      Ahh, the crazy chick great sex myth. Yes, it’s true that sex with women with these issues is usually off the charts–at first. Wild sex is how they lure men into relationships with them. In other words, some men are willing to overlook all of the other crazy BS because the sex is so good.

      However, once you’re in a relationship with one of these women, more often than not, the sex falls off the cliff, but the other crazy behaviors escalate. Some men hang in, hoping that things will return to the way they once were, but they rarely do. For the most part, this isn’t a conscious plan of these women. They’re master chameleons at becoming whomever or whatever they think people want them to be.

      If they think you want an adventurous sexpot, they play that role for a time, but can’t sustain it forever. If you enjoyed this blog, check out I’m a F–ked Up Chick Magnet on The Onion. The author is describing the same phenomenon.

      T

      • Bonkers
        March 4, 2010 at 11:15 pm

        Ah, the lure; I fell for this, reasonably great at the start- in the end she got changed in the bathroom – I don’t think I saw her naked in the last 3 months of the relationship… Of course, it was all my fault when I approached her on the subject.

      • Rick_A
        June 12, 2013 at 2:39 pm

        “This isn’t a conscious plan of these women”, I agree! I “think” they sense something missing in themselves and try to overcompensate for it in other areas. We all have a bit of a mask we wear in public, with strangers and meeting new people. Just the “put your best foot forward” everyone has boundaries they protect attitude that is healthy. But these women, NOT knowing any better take that to extremes of wearing a mask that is totally different than who they are underneath.

        My soon to be ex (STBE), was voted Best Personality of her High School Class, I thought I had hit the jackpot, in public Mrs. Kind and Wonderful to everyone, but behind closed doors, Ms. Nymphomaniac.

        But only a few years later, she thanked her new husband (who had forgiven her for tricking him into a child years before she promised him they’d wait) for buying her a new car, by the next morning as he left for work, running out on the lawn in her bathrobe in front of the neighbors, screaming and swearing at the top of her lungs, throwing cans at him that bounced off the new car.

        She was able to maintain that mask with her High School friends over the years, but every other social group has seen it slip. When I tell neighbors, my friends, my family, she was voted best personality of her class, they burst out in disbelieving laughter. Then I tell them she was 10 times worse behind closed doors, and they suddenly shift to deep empathy and condonsolences for what it must have been like.

        And yes, it is Borderline Personality Disorder she was eflicted with, and there were warning signs while we were dating, and my own emotional scars helped me overlook them and actually let me accept her pressuring me into marrying her.

  17. shrink4men
    February 6, 2009 at 5:49 am

    Forgot to add, Bryce, that I love the line, “it was like the Crazy Dam had burst at Lake Insanity!!”

    So funny, but also a little scary because I’m sure you’re not exaggerating.

  18. Bryce
    February 6, 2009 at 3:37 am

    “They only prescribe Zyprexa to the really crazy ones.”

    Mine was on Zyprexa for about two years. She told me it was a mood stabilizer for menopause.

    Other than the fact that she sometimes went out in public dressed like a bag lady, lost her sex drive, and got a cat, she was actually pleasent to be around for a change.

    Then she went cold turkey on the Zyprexa, and it was like the Crazy Dam had burst at Lake Insanity!!

    At least she got her sex drive back. The handyman, coworkers, nieghbors, strangers (the ones I know about), just about everybody but me ,,,lol

    I feel fortunate to have escaped without contracting an STD to go along with my PTSD.

    • shrink4men
      February 6, 2009 at 4:50 am

      PTSD, but no STD–good one, Bryce!

      Zyprexa’s not a stabilizer for menopause; it’s a mood stabilizer that’s also prescribed to people who suffer from violent seizures and dementia patients who have violent outbursts.

      Plus, my hunch is your ex’s problems began long before “the change.” There are some things that estrogen tabs and vaginal cream (sorry for the visual) just won’t cure.

  19. February 6, 2009 at 2:42 am

    #16) she doesn’t want to practice safe sex b/c she claims having your baby would be her honor. RUN!

    • shrink4men
      February 6, 2009 at 2:46 am

      Good one!

    • Rick_A
      June 12, 2013 at 6:37 pm

      #17) the only attribute that she finds appealing about you is “he’s so nice”, and that is all she talks about when she talks to her friends about you, especially when they are NOT that nie of a person themselves.

      Now, if “being nice” is one of a list of many positives that a lady likes about you, that’s perfectly normal, but being “nice” is the only single thing they are concerned with, then run for the door.

      Yes, plenty of women dump a guy because he is “too nice”. Sure, we all think of them being a bitch. But in reality, she is doing you a favor, she can sense your relationship is out of balance, she is NOT being held accountable and ultimately the relationship will be unfufilling, and likely you being on the losing end.

      But, a woman becoming totally enchanted with a man because he is so much nicer than herself, this is likely a crazy chick, that senses she has found the guy that won’t hold her accountable, and she can run wild in their relationship. The one that she can final drop her mask and be who she really is underneath and a guy that won’t leave her like the other guys have, just because she acts like herself when you get to know her better.

      Be cautious, if a girl justs can’t resist telling you how “nice” you are or her friends tell you, “all she talks about is how nice you are”, expect it won’t be long in the relationship before she starts to treat you like dirt, oh she may try to pull you back some really good sex or some lame excuse why she acted that way, or ply you with the crocodile tears, but it will all repeat itself again and again. She will ride that fine line of driving you away with her fears of attachment, than just before you leave, pull out all the stops to pull you back in with her fears of abandoment. It will be a never ending roller coaster that stops at the wedding chapel, or maybe the first child (cause a nice guy would never abandon his child no matter what) and after that it just goes into free fall to the rocky bottom.

  20. Ram Venkatararam
    February 6, 2009 at 2:33 am

    Thank you for your guidance. As I am determined to find a mate and marry this year these rules will, I’m sure, serve me well.

    Though I may cut the list down a little, I’m not overly fussy and, frankly, not much of a catch

    THanks for the post

    • shrink4men
      February 6, 2009 at 2:39 am

      Hi Ram,

      Good luck with your search for a mate. I hope you find someone who thinks you’re wonderful! No matter how un-fussy you may be, reasonably good sanity is always a plus.

      Best,
      Dr T

Comment pages
  1. December 2, 2010 at 10:55 am
  2. November 17, 2010 at 2:52 pm

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