10 Reasons You Can’t Communicate with a Narcissistic or Borderline Woman
Emotionally abusive narcissistic and/or borderline women are masters of spin control and pile driving their “reality” home through brute verbal force and emotional reasoning. If you’re involved with a NPD and/or BPD woman, you know these invective communication strategies firsthand.
This kind of woman clings to her belief system no matter how many times she’s confronted with incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. In fact, the more wrong she is, the greater the outrage and histrionics she displays.
The next time you challenge your BPD/NPD partner’s points of view, lies, distortions, unilateral pronouncements or unfounded accusations, notice how she responds. Your discussion probably turns into a one-sided argument replete with vitriolic theatrics and threats very quickly.
Here are some common communication control tactics of emotionally abusive narcissistic and/or borderline woman:
1. The Big Bamboozle. Here’s how it works: Emotionally abusive woman begin a conversation/attack with one topic. When you present facts that contradict her beliefs, she bamboozles you by going on off-topic tangents, changing the subject or making a brand new accusation. While you’re still defending your original point and why it’s valid, she blows you off (because you’re making sense) and distracts you by jumping to another topic that’s completely out of left field.
2. SHUT UP! When you try to explain your feelings or point of view, this kind of woman may explicitly tell you to, “Shut up!” Narcissists, borderlines and bullies not only “can’t handle the truth,” they go to great lengths to deny and obliterate it.
Your wife or girlfriend probably uses other tactics when you challenge her like walking out of the room, giving you the silent treatment or simply refusing to listen to you. In both cases, this is the adult control freak’s version of, “La, la, la, la, la, I can’t hear you! I can’t hear you!” They believe if they ignore or stop you from speaking the truth that it doesn’t exist like a small child who closes their eyes to “make you go away.”
3. Name-Calling. This is the last resort of bullies, such as NPD/BPD women. Because they can’t intelligently defend their position or their behaviors, they resort to emotionally-based personal attacks. It’s another distraction technique that sidetracks you from the original point of contention by disorienting you and putting you on the defensive.
Calling your boyfriend or husband names doesn’t prove your point; it’s merely an ad hominem attack. Here’s the logic: “Okay! Fine! Maybe the world is round, but you’re a bleeping, bleepity, bleep bleep! So there! That’s why I don’t have to listen to you. The world is flat!” You have two choices when presented with this kind of “logic;” sink to their level or walk away with dignity and sanity.
4. Projection. NPD/BPD women accuse their targets of things that they themselves are actually guilty of. This is a primitive defense mechanism. It’s the grown up version of the maddening childhood taunt, “I know you are, but what am I?” “But you’re the one who just…” “I know you are, but what am I?“
5. Splitting. This is another very primitive defense mechanism. NPD/BPD women see people and the world in all-or-nothing, good vs. evil, black-and-white terms. They have no capacity for context or nuance. Either you see things her way or you must be crushed into the ground. You can’t respectfully agree to disagree with this kind of woman. Any criticism, difference of opinion or challenge to her “authority” is seen as a threat and will be treated as such in that you will be devalued and demonized.
6. Smear Campaigns. First, they split, then they smear. It’s not enough for NPD/BPD women to disagree with and despise you. Everyone else is the world, including your own family and friends, must hate you and see how wrong you are, too. These women go after you by attacking your ethics, integrity, sexuality and manufacture the most ridiculous nonsense in order to destroy your reputation. Unfortunately, the bigger the lie, the more gullible people tend to believe it.
7. Gaslighting. Women with these issues both deny things they’ve said and done and accuse you of the very same transgressions they committed. They also twist a grain of truth into a huge distortion until you begin to doubt your own sanity and look like the crazy person when you try to defend yourself.
8. Increasing the Volume; Not the Logic. The more wrong an emotionally abusive NPD/BPD woman is, the louder and/or more resolute she gets. Her level of fake outrage, vindictiveness or emotional withdrawal is in direct proportion to how accurate you are. She will either talk over and shout at you, repeating the same simplistic, emotionally-charged statements over and over until she drowns out all reason or give you the silent treatment until you submit and apologize for your “offense.”
9. Blame and Shame. NPD/BPD women blame others for everything that is wrong and never consider how they contribute to and often cause the issues and their own unhappiness. They shift responsibility to make you seem bad and crazy in an effort to shame you into submission.
10. Playing the Victim. When NPD/BPD women are called out for their bad behaviors and dishonesty, they then play the victim. They claim they’re being unfairly attacked for “standing up for the truth” and having the “courage” to speak out. This kind of woman frequently defends her indefensible behaviors by saying she was swept away by her emotions or passion and offers such chestnuts as, “I did what my heart told me to do.” Nonsense. These women are known to have temper tantrums when their bad behaviors are exposed and lash out with a verbal attack or pout in cold silence.
At heart, an emotionally abusive woman is a bully who will try to steamroll anyone who disagrees with her. It’s not just about controlling her reality, but controlling everyone else’s reality, too. When you allow a narcissistic and/or borderline woman to determine reality, you’re letting one of the inmates control the asylum. So the next time you’re on the verge of being sucked in by one of the above tactics, calmly look your wife or girlfriend in the eye, quietly say “No” and walk away.
Counseling, Consulting and Coaching with Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD
Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD helps individuals work through their relationship and codependency issues via telephone or Skype. She specializes in helping men and women trying to break free of an abusive relationship, cope with the stress of an abusive relationship or heal from an abusive relationship. She combines practical advice, emotional support and goal-oriented outcomes. Please visit the Schedule a Session page for professional inquiries or send an email to shrink4men@gmail.com.
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Shrink4Men 
Hello Everyone,
Dr. T, thank you. I have been riveted to this site since somehow coming upon it today. To Jenny and Free2bYou, as a woman, I share your thoughts and probably experiences, too.
As I sit here, I’m in awe…in awe of seeing this craziness spelled out before me.
Welcome Carolanne,
This site is the best site I have found on the web or better than many books I have come across & read on abusive personalities. As a Non-BPD woman, I find it extremely helpful dealing with any abusive personalities I have come across & still unfortunately run into at times…male or female. Not only is Dr. Tara’s information so helpful & informative here, but it is wonderful to find so many compassionate & helpful men willing to help others in abusive relationships, as well. I am a huge fan of this site & although I do not comment too much, I always enjoy reading the new articles & posts. Everyone is so helpful with their unique & yet some times similar stories of emotional & at times, physical abuse. The awe never stops….it amazes me how far these psycho personalities will go to get their way & abuse compassionate people with big hearts. I cheer on everyone who regains their freedom from BPD & NPD beasts(both male & female) & learns to slam the door in their faces once & for all. Ok, I will stop rambling now…lol.. I just wanted to welcome you here! Happy Holidays to everyone
This site has been like a revelation to me. I live with my wife – we have a 2 year old, and another one on the way – but I “checked out” over a year ago, I’d say. I just try not to say anything at all, because I don’t even want to CHANCE an argument… because then I just end up frustrated and angry because nothing I ever say matters or makes any difference at all.
But what am I supposed to do about the pregnancy? I was starting to actually enjoy the idea of an apartment of my own, and how much fun my son and I would have, and how much better my life would be. She knew I was thinking of leaving. I’ve had “issues” since I’ve been on anti-depressants, and I honestly thought there wasn’t even a chance of this happening… plus we never have sex! Once a month, if I’m lucky! Now what? How can I free myself from a pregnant BPD/NPD wife? I really need help on this one.
“Consequently buying presents for her is very stressful. I don’t do it very often because it’s not a joyous duty”
Amen. I remember a time when xmas shopping was FUN. Now it’s hell – I just worry about whether or not she’s going to like it. I hate to get her anything she didn’t specifically tell me to get.
Last year, just for fun, I wrapped some of her favorite candy and put it under the tree for her. I, for one, would love to get a gift of my favorite candy bars, but she unwrapped it, gave me this look of disdain and said “why did you wrap this?”
She has criticized other gifts I’ve given her, but I can’t recall any examples to share.
Now, while it’s OK for her to openly dislike the presents I give her, it is absolutely not OK for me to be even slightly unenthusiastic about a gift she gives me. And by “unenthusiastic” I mean “let it sit anywhere she can see it without hugging it and telling her how thoughtful and brilliant she was for giving it to me.”
Plus we have to buy HER parents fantastic gifts – plane tickets to vist us, for example. However, I can’t even give my parents a set of DVDs without her freaking out about my spending so much money on them. She’s decided my parents are “rich” and therefore don’t “need” extravagent gifts. I think when I get out, I’m going to buy my folks a pair of Corvettes to make up for it. ;)
“I was supposed to know what she wanted ”
Yep. Once I got sent to Home Depot to pick out a light fixture while she was doing something else. She wouldn’t tell me what she wanted, I was just supposed to pick what I thought was best. Her mom came along and helped me pick one. OK, done. Guess who absolutely hated it, and wanted to know what I was thinking.
Kent:
I was compelled to reply to your post on two points.
1–“She expects me to read her mind, and if I don’t, she explodes. Phrases like “If you knew me at all…” and the proverbial “If you loved me…” Consequently buying presents for her is very stressful. I don’t do it very often because it’s not a joyous duty…”
AMEN. brother! I have been through this misadventure for more than a decade! Like normal people do (well, that was my FIRST mistake!), I’d ask what she would like for Christmas gift-wise, and I would get those exact phrases thrown my way. BUT, no matter what I got, there would always be some sort of problem:
–Couldn’t buy jewelry, as she’s “not a jewelry person” (her words)…there’s a $500 pair of 1/4 carat, small and simple diamond stud earrings sitting collecting dust…and, I’d get excoriated for spending that amount of money on them
–Couldn’t buy perfume, as there would be something wrong with it…didn’t like it’s smell, gave her a headache, etc.
–Couldn’t buy her clothes, as my picks were either too big/too small/too long/too short
–Couldn’t buy her sexy lingerie, as she would feel “slutty”
–Couldn’t buy much else, as she has no hobbies or interests other than parking her ass in front of the TV
Thankfully, 2 years ago she made the suggestion that we would stop buying each other gifts at Christmas…while that resolved the dilemma and stress, it still ripped out a very important part of the experience and enjoyment of the holiday season.
2–“Last year I brought home a Christmas tree that was too short and unacceptable to her. I was supposed to know what she wanted and not bring home a tree that was depressing and totally wrong. I got read the riot act for this lapse in judgement. I went back and got an acceptable tree. this year I told her that I was not going alone to get a tree because of what happened last year. I was once again castigated and told that all I needed to do was know her better so I could get something acceptable to her. I said we should both go and an argument ensued in which she refused to go and insisted I go on my own.”
Yeah, I hear that…while I’m fine with doing the actual work of hanging Christmas lights outside and decorations, I have always tried to get her involved in the planning-what color lights, where to hang them, etc. And EVERY stinking year, once they’re up, there’s ALWAYS something wrong, and it’s always MY fault.
Hi Dr T
First I wanted to thank you and everyone else who has shared their stories. It’s been a tremendous validation and helped me to realize I’m not as crazy, flawed, or issue-prone as I have been labeled. I’m still in the relationship and living with my Narc fiancee, but I am slowly moving my things out as I come to grips with the end of the relationship, and the realization that ‘it’s not me.’ So far all my reading and shifting of possessions is happening stealthfully or all hell would break loose. I do hate all the sneaking, but Dr T, I take your advice about safety very seriously.
I also felt it was time to share some of the experiences that have gotten me to this point. She and I have been together for 5 years, and engaged for 3. I live in her house along with she and her 12 year old daughter. I occupy a separate bedroom while she and her daughter live in the master bedroom. It’s been this way ever since she pressured me to move in nearly 2-1/2 years ago. I held on to my apartment for as long as possible which angered her greatly. I told her it gave me a sense of having something that was mine and she told me that was stupid (actual phrase). This on it’s own is bad enough, but add to it that her daughter’s father does not know either that we are engaged or that I live here. I have insisted several times that she tell him, which prompts more angry outbursts and refusals citing family stability, and his unstable mental state. Her mother backs her up on this too. I have very little physical presence in the house and when he comes to pick his daughter up it’s as if I’m not here – because I’m not, and neither is any evidence of me. She vehemently defends these decisions, including that her daughter has to lie to maintain them. She denies me as a person with rights to dignity, and as a significant part of her life. And this is not the only situation like this. She demanded that I tell my former girlfriend that I was engaged, but refused to do so with her ex. It’s always been her way or the highway. And I’ve always caved and gone with her way.
She has always been in competition with my son. She has never supported me when I was battling my ex-wife over custody issues. In fact I felt like I was fighting a two-front war. My ex would make concessions then my fiancee would argue that I wasn’t allowing her enough of my time. And that my son was the center of my attention and not her. Again I caved in to her demands and fashioned my schedule with my son around her demands. Yet she feels no need to stick to the schedule and plays very fast and loose with it in regard to her daughter (yet when there’s a lack of intimate time, it’s always because of my son’s schedule). I’ve talked to others about this and they are always incredulous. They say “she’s a parent, she should understand and be supportive.” I agree with them. But it isn’t so.
She’s bullied me out of taking work. I work in the entertainment industry, and things are slow right now. I had a chance to pick up some extra money on a TV show, but she blew up at me, telling me that her fiancee did not do that kind of work. It was perfectly legitimate, fun, and legal. But it went against her idea of what her fiancee should be doing for a living in order for her to look good. In the meantime, she spends her weekends in a second job at an amusement park. This is just another example of the constant double-standard and hypocrisy that permeates our relationship.
She expects me to read her mind, and if I don’t, she explodes. Phrases like “If you knew me at all…” and the proverbial “If you loved me…” Last year I brought home a Christmas tree that was too short and unacceptable to her. I was supposed to know what she wanted and not bring home a tree that was depressing and totally wrong. I got read the riot act for this lapse in judgement. I went back and got an acceptable tree. this year I told her that I was not going alone to get a tree because of what happened last year. I was once again castigated and told that all I needed to do was know her better so I could get something acceptable to her. I said we should both go and an argument ensued in which she refused to go and insisted I go on my own.
Consequently buying presents for her is very stressful. I don’t do it very often because it’s not a joyous duty, an that carries its own collection of repudiations.
She gets very upset with me when I talk to my father. She’s convinced that he’s one of the people that I ‘talk shit about her’ to. She’s gone so far as to call my dad names. that was an easy one to bat back, though. And she backed down. But she is convinced that I am ‘talking shit’ about her to all my friends. I do talk about our circumstance, and it gives me some perspective and support. But my fiancee has never had anything nice to say about my friends. I’m sure she’d rather I didn’t associate with them, based on the condescending things she’s said. It does make it hard to have friends and family when I feel like I have to have all my contact when she’s not around.
I am always so relieved when she leaves for work or when I do. It’s like the tension leaves and the air comes back into the room. She consistently come home from work and finds fault with something (frequently after a couple drinks with co-workers). Though she has gone off on me many times, it’s not constant. Sometimes she is bright and smiling and loving, and I wonder if I’m wrong about the way I felt the previous evening when Ms Hyde was in the house. Then I hear her go off on her daughter and I’m reminded that my perceptions are accurate. While the abusive reprimands and recriminations are aimed at me only sometimes (though enough, thank you), her daughter gets the brunt of it. I’d say that rarely does a day go by without something abusive, snide, and hurtful being said to that girl. Then she’ll turn around and tell her that she’s the center of the universe, or the most this, or the most that. I’m sure the daughter doesn’t know which end is up. And I see plenty of her mothers traits in her. Raising a perfect future Narcissist.
All in all, I’m relieved not to be sharing a room with my fiancee. It would be that much harder to extricate myself, or to have a safe haven from the fighting. And I actually don’t want her to tell her ex about us at this point. Too little too late. At least when we have split up, that will be one less stress for her daughter to have to deal with.
There’s so much more. But this is enough for now. Thanks for listening. And thanks again for your website.
Joe:
To answer your questions:
1–Yes, the next “victim” will see it soon enough.
2–Tony absolutely nails the answer here: “They don’t interpret love like we do I fear. That’s the horrible thing about it all, knowing you were in a relationship with what is actually an emotional child (with simple childlke emotions and responses) within an adult’s body.”
And this is EXACTLY what makes living with a high-functioning BPD with narcissism sprinkled in the incredible nightmare that it is. Somehow, over the years, our BPDs developed sufficient “coping” skills to deal with “life at large”-things like getting and keeping a job, paying bills, etc. However, their remaining time is spent in “BPD/NPD mode”, and guess who gets to see that side? One minute, it’s the NPD “child as an adult”, bullying you around like you’re on a schoolyard playground…the next, the withdrawal/sulking of BPD. This constant oscillation between adult and child is what makes us “nons” loose our sense of stability, our moral compasses, or self-esteem. We just don’t know what to expect-hence the term “walking on eggshells”.
Mike – yes there seems to be a strong connection with childhood issues and trauma. But as you say, we didn’t join the dots and see how this factor was so important in their behaviour. i only understand now.
Joe – those are two questions I think we all ask ourselves. I believe BPD’s are too emotionally stunted and shallow to understand real mature adult love. Their expressions of love arent based on the same emotions we have. Its almost certain your ex will have her new man on the same hellish rollercoaster once the honeymoon is over and she can let her dark side emerge. They can’t change, its a deeply ingrained defence mechanism they will probably always have I think.
They don’t interpret love like we do I fear. That’s the horrible thing about it all, knowing you were in a relationship with what is actually an emotional child (with simple childlke emotions and responses) within an adult’s body. Hard to come to terms with, but it consoles me, knowing i couldnt have ever received real adult loving emotions from someone trapped in childhood. No partner will, in fact, unless they get serious help or intense therapy i suspect
Dear Dr T.
Thank you for your thoughts. Since my breakup, I’ve read countless books and none have ever shed the light of information about my roller coaster hellish experience with dating a BPD woman for 4 years as your advice and insight. Please help me understand two things. (1) – If a BPD woman does not seek help, will she carry it into her next relationship and consequently drive that guy crazy. Moreover, (2) Were her verbal expressions of “Love” simply just that…. words. And does she really believe she love someone, when in fact her life in everyway and action, proves the opposite. Two weeks ago I ran into her with her new (very rich)boyfriend. As soon as she saw me, she contrived the most ridiculous act of affection towards him that they almost fell down kissing. I guess this was her way of telling me, “look how happy and in love I am”. “Methinks the lady doth protest too much”. – Shakespeare. Another words…. I don’t buy it! I do know one thing for sure. She was all about looks and labels. So she is making love to his wallet. That’s how I felt most of the time.
Your thoughts?
A couple of more things to I missed before…
1–Ah yes, the “mind file” and/or little black book. These women have an AMAZING capacity to retain EVERY stinkin’ little transgression that you have EVER done, and recall them as “evidence” against you in arguments with stunning clarity…and, it does not matter how “minor” the offense, or how long ago it happened, they know it!
2–BUT, my friend, if YOU happen to bring up something SHE has done, the “gaslighting” comes on full force: “I never did/said that” or “That has nothing to do with anything”…OR, better yet, if you have IRREFUTABLE evidence of it-paper, audio, or full-blown video, she’ll tell you “You MADE me do it” or “You’re imagining things”…that is called PROJECTION.
As Mr. E so simply and eloquently states below:
“Is it true that in normal relationships one gets criticized and put down LESS than half the time? Seriously, what heaven that must be.”
Yeah, imagine that–after YEARS living with constant/frequent emotional and verbal abuse, living with someone NORMAL would surely feel like we’d died and gone to heaven! Because…we’d actually regain our self-esteem; we’d feel like we’re married to a PARTNER instead of a PARENT! (By the way, ain’t it funny that only ONE letter separates those two words? That one extra “R”…and you know what it stands for? RESPECT, as in MUTUAL respect…generally, “parental respect” is a one-way street-you must respect your parent…whereas, with a partner/spouse, respect MUST work BOTH ways…)
Hi Rahul,
No you are a not a bad person, you are like the rest of us men here. Men who bent over backwards to try and please the BPOD women in our lifes and the more you try to do everything right, the worse it gets. They are insatible personalities im afraid.
My story is elsewhere on this site. My g/f was irrationally jealous and constantly verbally attacked me, accusing me all the time. These relationships traumatise you, because you know there is something wrong and you just can’t put it right.
She was also abandoned and sexually abused as a child
Here is an excellent article which explains how the emotional development of these people is arrested and how and why they react as they do. This article gave me a great insight and understanding. My thoughts are with you.
http://www.mhsanctuary.com/Borderline/anon.htm
Tony:
Isn’t it ironic how most of these women we describe had these serious physical/emotional/sexual abuse or abandonment issues as children? And, unfortunately for us UP TO NOW, missed all the warning signs? As I’ve told my tale elsewhere here, I missed them all also…her parent’s horrific interactions with each other, the “strangeness” of having 3 “old maid” sisters…of course, 20-odd years ago, the Internet didn’t exist, so I had no realistic means of looking into these oddities. Oh well…
That said, it’s important that as we move forward, we learn from our experiences. While I am somewhat saddened by the fact that I must “investigate” prospective partners in the future, it’s nonetheless CRITICALLY important to find those “skeletons” before making any sort of long-term committments. One horrible marriage is enough for me, thank you!
Dear Dr.Tara,
I was dating this woman who was 7 years older to me, I am currently 28 years old and she is a very attractive 35 year old. When we started our relationship she was the sweetest and most loving person as she trusted me like no other, especially from the background she came from..
To give you a brief about her negatives experiences in her past, she had been abused as child when she was very young. She was in a marriage in which she was treated abusively both emotionally and physically. After which she met me (the knight in shining armor, who just wanted to make everything all right in her life)
We would have these long chats about her life…about the abuse she had been through in life… and how life had been so unfair to her. I agreed and believed everything that she said 100 %…as I was so obsessively in love with her (To me she was the sweetest person I knew) I say obsessively because I was physically, emotionally and mentally obsessed with her to the “T”.
The only demand she had from me was…she would tell me never to lie to her under any circumstances. I knew where she was coming from, as I knew what all she had been though in life and had a difficulty trusting people.
The initial part of out relationship was amazing and lasted a year, everything was going great as I gave her everything I had (my very being to her!)..I made her the center of my life! Because I wanted to be the guy who would never let her down. I took up that role (not knowing what I was getting into) it was just her and me. I thought if I gave her all my time, she would heal and we would have the most amazing relationship on this planet.
I have to tell you, that we had a connection… a connection I cannot deny to this date. We both were convinced we were soul mates and this relationship was meant to be.
After a year of being together I realized, that she wasn’t healing emotionally the way I expected her to, as I was giving her all the love and attention humanly possible. She only wanted to be with me… I started feeling bit claustrophobic in the relationship. But I would brush it aside in my head, as I loved her and cared for. There came a time, when I started spending some extra time with my guy friends. This used to happen every other night, for me this was natural and healthy to spend my extra time when I didn’t meet her or after I meet her to spend it with my friends. She was okay with it intitally,but later she got very insecure(as she used to have thoughts of other girls hitting on me ,me neglecting her, me choosing others over her to name a few).She was extremely possessive and insecure at the very start of the relationship. I must say I enjoyed the attention initially as I never gave her a chance to complain (not knowing this trait was a volcano ready to burst, and consume my life)
The fights and the blame for neglecting and choosing others started on a daily basis. After a week of trying to reason out and explain myself, I just gave up on this topic. One day I decided to lie, as I was with my friends (because I knew she wouldn’t understand)…and everything just went downhill from there. .She caught on to the lie somehow and never forgave me for that, as she had told me never to lie to her ever. There were other silly occasions too before, where I had said some white lies as I just wanted to do my own thing(I was just getting frustrated)… All the above were caught and a file was made against me in her head..(a black book). I realize that lying is not the best option for anybody, and I took absolute responsibility for them. I promised her one day, that I would never lie even if was a trivial matter…I practice that even to this day.
I thought the matter was over…But I started to realize that she had not forgiven me.. Every argument, she would bring up my “lie topic”…everything I did wrong…Would be added to this file of hers and would be brought up every single time. Everything that didn’t go down with her thinking, was turning against me…she would cry, she would get angry, make me feel guilty and even shout…. it was like I brought out the devil in her!. And to be honest I was really guilty. .I was the cause of all her sleepless nights! When topics of my past mistakes would be brought up. I just couldn’t say much… as I knew I was guilty for my actions…What I couldn’t understand was why were they brought up when ever I didn’t want to listen to her unreasonable demands… e.g. when I had relatives over at my place, and she knew that very clearly. She would call me up and tell me to meet up with her, cause she felt insecure about one of my second cousins who was very pretty(I mean cammon…I see her like my sister!)…you know things as stupid as that…I began to understand that this relationship is just heading for doom…she just stopped trusting me.. Forever!… she would say things like…”I dnt trust you anymore.. you do whatever it takes to make me trust you again” I became the performing artist who just had to listen to all that she wanted even if it was unreasonable(to me).
At odd occasions, I would stand my ground. This would make her baliistic!!!..everytime I had something to say about her negatives and how she was treating me and as to why we cant just move on and be happy, she would bring up all the things I had done to hurt her from start to finish(it was like a whole list) and that was the reason she is behaving like this!!..It was like trying to reason with a child…a child I loved for some reason …It was just exhausting to say the least. I realized that what ever I did started featuring in her black book. Where I started feeling everything was my fault.. Cause when ever I wanted to confront my feelings all I would get from her were tears and the realizations that I was the bad person and I was letting her down again. I just kept explaining myself only to be dismissed over and over. I lost out on my friends. I started staying at home in the hope of gaining her trust and push aside her insecurities. I used to get these anxiety attacks and started loosing out on my self confidence (as no matter how much I tried, the closest person I was to, just didn’t get me). I just didn’t want to let her down, this cycle when on and on. By this constant cycle of trying to prove myself I become very dependant on her and her approval.
By this time, I was mentally, physically and emotionally dependant on her and I mean too far deep to get out!.
I just felt alienated from the rest of the world and I went into this web of trying to prove myself, my love …only to fail to make her realize that I am doing all that I can(explaining ,proving, pleading) only so that she knows I love her. Trying to prove to her..Hey, I am not such a bad guy as you think!. I was looking for some kind of approval.
I must say that in all this explaining. We were very physically involved. So here I was getting physically satisfied but “emotionally beaten up”.
When ever I thought of getting out of this relationship, I felt like how I will survive without her. As in my head I had put so much time and effort in this relationship. How could I give up now?…to me proving my love for her and heeding to her demands became the story of my life. I used to think to myself.. how can such an amazing person(In the beginning) turn out to be like this?…it must be because I lied…and that must be the reason she is so hurtful as now she sees me as all the others, who have let her down in life. I kept telling myself that this is a phase …as she just doesn’t believe me or understand me…its only temporary…this last time if I get through to her ,I will be able to win her over!.
Unfortunately …she believing me would never happen and the vicious cycle kept going on.
The other day she left me for good…after all the explaining and giving my life trying to make her realize…she just packed her bags and left. her explanation before leaving was, “I am sorry for hurting you in any way, I have tried to believe you and gain your trust…but I just cant….I don’t think I am cut out for a relationship. I cant live a life imagining that you are up to something (when I truly wasn’t)…I hope you and your friends are happy together.. as they seem to be more important to you”
I want to know…if me lying is the cause of this relationship coming to an end…is she right in leaving?… am I the bad person?… …..its come to appoint where I am the one looking for answers …as I thought I had it all under control.
Need your advice desperately Dr.tara as I am just lost…I just don’t know how she functions?.. I just feel played ….its like someone robbed me of all that I am about!
Can you please advice on a healthy and normal relationship is all about… As I have no clue?
Thank you for your time Dr.Tara and I truly think your site is a blessing.
Rahul:
First, welcome to the community! Spend some time here reading our stories, and you will find quite a kindred spirit. Trust me, take the hours or days necessary to read our tales, and you will quickly realize…”IT’S NOT MY FAULT!”
Reading your story, your ex sounds very much like my STBXW-the childhood abuse/madness (though mine refuses to discuss it), the jealousy/controlling behavior, and in particular, the whole “lie/trust” issue. Your ex sounds like the classic high-functioning BPD, with heavy-duty NPD characteristics. Let me explain…
My wife took the whole “lie/trust” thing to a whole ‘nuther level. Accountability and truthfulness had to be 100000%, 24/7/365, no exceptions…failure to comply would result in severe penalties WAY out of proportion relative to the “offense”. Unlike a NORMAL person, who would “understand” tiny white lies or withholding of minor details or inconsequential fluff, BPDs see everything in black or white; this is known as splitting. Here’s an example:
Sunday afternoon: wife is going to meet her girlfriend(s) for lunch/shopping. “Tells” me before leaving to get living room cleaned up/dusted/vacuumed. (NOTE: it’s funny, in a sick way, how many of us in relationships with these women get stuck doing 100% of the household chores; because…the NPD “orders” us to do so!) Anyhow, while I’m doing my chores, I put the TV on the afternoon’s NFL football games, kind of as background noise. OK, so I get things done, and the wife comes back home several hours later. She “inspects” the living room, and makes numerous comments about missing this little speck of dust here, didn’t do that there, etc. She then asks “What else were you doing while I was gone?” I reply “nothing.” Her: “Nothing? You didn’t have the TV on?” Me: “Well yea, but just for noise…” UH-OH, here it comes… her: “You f**king liar! Why couldn’t you just tell me the truth? Why do you always have to lie to me, I can never trust you…every time I think I can trust you, you go and do something stupid or lie!”
The problem with this is the Catch-22 that has been created. IF I were to tell her EXACTLY, and in full detail, what I was doing EVERY FREAKING MINUTE, I would get this rant: “You’re a bum, and when I tell you to do something, you better get it done, and done right.” This, Rahul, is what it’s like living with a BPD/NPD; it’s deceptively simple:
–DO what they say,
–WHEN they say,
–and HOW the say.
Note that I did not include “WHY”, because the “why” answer is always the same: “Because I said so.” What does such a statement remind you of? That’s right, a young child! And, as Tony mentions in his reply to you, due to issues that these women have experienced as children, their normal emotional development is arrested. Therefore, while you may be dealing with a adult in terms of PHYSICAL age, emotionally these folks are stuck at a 5-10 year old level…so you might as well be on a grade school playground while talking to these women.
NORMAL adults in an intimate relationship do the following in the interactions with each other:
–Discuss things calmly and rationally
–Negotiate items of contention
–Compromise when necessary
–Love each other unconditonally (well, there are a FEW exceptions-abuse, violence, infidelity, etc.)
–Accept the other for who they are, warts and all
–Do not attempt to “mold” the other person into someone else
All of these things exist in a normal, RECIPROCAL relationship…and reciprocity and “giving back” do NOT exist in a BPD/NPD’s world…at least to those unfortunate folks very near them. My wife can be the most giving and sweet person in public and to her acquaintances…but to me, it’s more-more-MORE and ME-ME-ME!
Rahul, stop beating yourself up over the lying issue. Let’s face it, you and I have told “little white lies” or withheld information in order to avoid the expected explosions and rages…and you get caught up in a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” loop. The ONLY way out of it is to GET OUT, and STAY OUT.
You ask at the end for advice on a normal and healthy relationship-to use my example above, in a NORMAL situation, my wife would have simply said “Gee, the living room looks nice! Who won the football game?” OR, “There’s a little bit of dust over here…let me get a rag and clean it, since the rest of the room looks great, you did a wonderful job!”
“‘Tells’ me before leaving to get living room cleaned up/dusted/vacuumed.”
They all do this, don’t they? Ugh.
To wit: “I’m going out to have fun now! You stay here and scrub toilets and mop and whatever else I haven’t thought of yet but you still need to do. Oh and you’re still a bum who doesn’t do anything around here! Bye, love you!”
Is it true that in normal relationships one gets criticized and put down LESS than half the time? Seriously, what heaven that must be.
…Don’t mind me. Got up on the wrong side of the bed today.
HI,
I was wondering if any of you, including Dr. T, have noticed these women using “frames” to control men? I am a hypnotist/NLP coach and practitioner, and in our teachings, we have “Frame Control”. Let me explain…
A frame is something, like a position or state of mind (a past experience can also become a frame) where suggestions can filter out of. Once a “frame” has been set, then future suggestions can easily slide through it. It’s sort of like establishing a foundation, then, once the foundation has been set, it can easily be built upon.
This works easily in therapy to help others overcome phobias, problems, etc…but…when Frame Control is used the wrong way, it is the most powerful/subtle form of mind control I’ve ever witnessed. This is how she used frames…
She would do something controlling and crazy…I would object somehow. Then, she would blame me for the problem and throw guilt on me. As I softened up, she’d say something like. “Promise me this will never happen again and that next time you will…” Alas…if I accepted her “contract” (or even if I let it blow over and stayed with her) A FRAME HAS BEEN SET.
Next time she does the same thing, I’m trapped by the former Frame. It was as if she were a conqueror who won territory from each argument we had. Each time a conflict occurred, she would come out the victor and a Frame was established that gave her permission to repeat the same suggestions and behavior. This frame also locked me into a position where I couldn’t say anything.
Piece by piece, she kept adding Frames to our relationship. The odd thing was we got along most of the time because I abided by her Frames. Even if I ignored my objections to her behavior or bdp/npd beliefs, this was good enough in that she remained in control and not challenged.
A covert example of her Frame Control: Thanksgiving last year. My family didn’t have a turkey. They had a turkey breast with white meat instead. She complained that there wasn’t going to be a turkey and asked if she thought my family would get offended if she brought one. I told her, with an odd feeling, to go ahead.
Then she said that she wouldn’t bring one, but that her family ALWAYS has a real turkey. Then, she said she’d need to spend thanksgiving more often with her family.
Then, she implied that we needed and would need to spend time with her family (who lived across the country) for holidays. It wasn’t right to always need to spend the holidays with my family. She had a family too, you know.
So, in spite of work, in spite of the fact that I wouldn’t even have minded seeing her family…and I have and did spend a Christmas with them. I had no objections to seeing them.
But now a Frame has been set. Every holiday there would be pressure on me to spend it with her family instead of mine (all cause of a missing turkey!).
But this wasn’t enough. Then, if I’d go to see her family, I’d have to go see and spend time with all her friends. Then, I’d need to do everything she did– otherwise I wasn’t being supportive.
Of course, if I consented…she’d piggy back a NEW FRAME. Now, anytime her friend did something in our local area, I’d be expected to tag along. It was as if she wantd me to live her life and to live life how she wanted.
One day I got a message from her and she told me she bought me plane tickets to visit her family for the holidays (she never asked me or anything…never asked if I’d get the time off work). I got the message and didn’t call her for four days.
When we finally spoke, she was shocked that I had gotten angry for her buying me plane tickets that were SO EASY to cancel. Of course, months later I told her to cancel them cause I didn’t want to use my vacation time in that my mother was going to have a surgery and she may need me.
She cried and cried until I gave in. The trip was awful. She told me that I didn’t like my job and that I could just quit to go with her and see her family. Plus, on a different note, her mom was a fruitcake borderline who would “hate” me if she ever heard I’d object to anything her daughter did. And yet she would always insist I’d spend time with her mom.
So, I’d be forced to mingle with her family, and then each time we had a fight (almost always over something she covertly started) she’d turn her family against me and together they would disown me and talk about how she could do better than me, etc.
This set a new FRAME in that now I was afraid to argue with her because she would then resort to a smear campaign and turn her family (who I was brainwashed to believe were also my family) against me. She’d indirectly tell me how her sister and mother were upset with me, etc.
She’d do the same thing with her friends. Anyway, I had a deep talk with a high ranking hypnotist, and he reminded me that she was using Frame Control. I couldn’t believe it in that I knew of Frame Control but didn’t realize it was being used on me by someone who was NEVER TRAINED in hypnosis/NLP.
Now, the above is only a tiny example of her Frames. But it applied to everything, and piece by piece, she was putting together a beautiful puzzle of fear and control. The only reason why we got along so much was because I always let her nit pick and have her way. When i’d object, we’d argue, and then she’d either blow up or just calmly remove her engagement ring and thank me for telling her how I felt.
Then, I’d go crazy and apologize. She’d reluctantly put the ring back on and alas…a new Frame was set. I’ll never be able to object to that sort of thing again…otherwise the ring just might come off again.
And she often took “small bites”. She didn’t just take large pieces of territory all at once. She let me have many of my opinions and beliefs, but she’d covertly object to little things and gain pieces of control.
After a while, she had a hell of a lot of territory. I think in a matter of time, had I stayed with her, that she would have attacked the other areas too–that she was temporarily allowing me to occupy…such as studying and doing a few things without her.
And as she let me have my opinion and interest that she took no interest in whatsoever…and yet wanted me to take interest in her interest…it was like she was covertly sending me the message that she was doing me a favor by letting me have interests and hobbies that were not her own. Of course, in the end of our relationship, where I let her have it, she of course attacked my interest and told me how stupid they were. Hypnosis was stupid, and so was everything else I liked.
Each time I let her get away with abusive behavior, a Frame was set that she could do it and that when a conflict emerged, I could not dare challenge her. It became clear to me that in order to keep her, I’d lose myself.
The worst thing is that its a dance. Sometimes you cannot tell who is leading (thus you can’t clearly see who is in the wrong). Because if you’re together, and she takes a step forward, you must take a step back to stay with her and to remain close to her in order to remain in her arms as you dance.
But if she leads the dance in the wrong direction, the outsiders cannot see who is leading who. So, if you end up in the wrong place, she can blame you for where you’re at, and yet…it was she who covertly led you into the argument and situation.
Sometimes, as you dance with them, you cannot even know for certain yourself who is leading the relationship into the fights and drama…until you really look closely and pay attention.
This is why, I think, the non borderline may appear to do borderline things, because he is dancing with a borderline, he must follow her steps in order to remain with her. They induce crazy making behavior…so you look and are accused of being crazy. And yet…in the dance…they gracefully led you there.
They despise the fire, but they forget that they were the one who lit the match that created the fire.
ADVANCED FRAME CONTROL–
Thanks Dr T for your reply
I have tried but will try again. The more I think about the more I wonder that she just can’t take responsibility for her actions. She justifies all her actions instead of simply saying sorry. Also I’ve noticed she can’t any form of constructive critism let alone help. For example if i try to give her directions to somewhere or repeat difficult instructions she just gets irritated!!
My confidence is so low. I want her make me feel beter not worse.
thanks again
Joe
Hi Joe,
Have you consider getting some kind of support for yourself to deal with this? The justifying all her actions and inability to handle criticism (even when it’s not—giving someone directions is not criticism) is a narcissistic trait. However, it doesn’t necessarily mean that she has a full-blow disorder.
What you need to ascertain is if she is capable of actually communicating with you about this and is willing to modify some of her ways. If not, you will most certainly feel worse over time.
Best,
Dr Tara
Hi Dr T
Alas i feel my marriage is all but over. We were talking about splitting and her going back to her country(we are not the same Nationality)
She was sobbing and when i asked what she was thinking she replied ‘I am upset because now(when she goes home) I will have no job, no where to live, no relationship, nothing! What concerned me was there was no mention of me and the fact our relationship was over?
That’s not good in my book. Any insight on what this says about her personality appreciated
thanks
joe
Hi Joe,
I thought I would comment as my partner seems to be very much like your wife. A lot of my partners criticisms are also focused on what seems to me to be petty domestic issues which over the whole day really drag me down. I’m not a slob, I know how to clean and cook to a reasonable standard because I had to for work. At home my efforts are never good enough. Over the years I’ve tried explaining that her constant negativity is getting me down and is largely unjustified. I’ve tried explaining that if she’s really not happy with something she can say so but it does matter how you say it. Shouting and nagging doesn’t work. But strangely enough any slight criticism of her no matter how tactful I am is met with an explosion.
The most frustrating thing is that she get very angry about the things I am supposedly doing wrong but is totally blind to the fact that she also does them or similar things. Where as my attitude is that non of us are perfect and so we make mistakes hers seems to be that I am useless and she is perfect.
Before we started living together she would come to my house and fill the first half an hour critizing – ‘the terrible dust’, ‘what a mess’, ‘oh the clutter and junk lying around’ etc etc. (No ‘Hi, how are you? what you been doing?’)But when I moved in with her and got to take a closer look at her place she obviously didn’t do much housework above the minimum (her obsession with washing clothes and doing the dishes and cleaning the kitchen floor) and the cupboards were crammed with stuff (she is a real hoarder). She refused to get rid of anything to make room for the minimum of my stuff.I know domestic stuff has it’s rightful place but there is more to life than arguing about specks of dirt on the kitchen floor.
She also says I drink too much but like you I usually only have 2 cans of beer (3 if she’s really getting to me). I’m well within the recommended limits for the week but she insists I’ve got a drink problem. I could mention her addiction to chocolate ……. . Basically she can’t see that other people have legitimate pleasures which may be different from hers.
My partner also rarely apologises for unkind words and so non of these hurts get resolved. What usually happens if I bring up an issue is that she immediately defends herself (ie she will not even consider that it might be valid), next accuses me of something (taking the attention off her), I start to defend myself, she interrupts with another accusation and just for good luck throws in a nasty comment about a member of my family (usually my mother). All in the space of about a minute! I grabbed her arm once to stop her getting run over and she threw a massive fit.
I’m sorry to say over the years (12 years) I’ve tried and tried to get through to this woman but come up against a brick wall. From what my partner has told me I would guess her mother totally dominated her husband (a very quiet unassuming man) and her family. Her mother seems to have alienated both of her adult sons (in 40’s and 50’s) (one is a depressive and the other has started self-harming.) I guess my partner doesn’t know how to create a good relationship with a man. She only seems to understand domination and control via berating. It’s more like a battle ground (if you don’t do as she says that is).
I have often thought things could be so good if only she could provide what seems so easy to give – the emotional support, kindness and respect that anyone deserves. When I don’t get it I feel angry and frustrated. Although it isn’t good to be dependant on another person for self-esteem it is a struggle to feel happy without some positive interaction with other human beings – especially the person you are supposed to be in a relationship with.
However it is only since I’ve found this wonderful, insightful website that I’ve a)stopped trying to figure out the puzzle of her behaviour and b)stopped trying to fix the relationship. This has given me some peace.
I hope things are not quite so bad as the picture I paint and that there is more of a possibility for you to sort things out.
Regards
Christophe
Hi Christophe
sorry to hear you are going through the same bother as me. So frustating\demoralising isn’t it. Wow,12 yrs you have had this hassle. That’s a long time to endure this behaviour. Can i ask why are you still around? Why is your partner still around? as i have have read that once the controller realizes they cant control you they are out of there!!I fear my marriage is over. We are not the same nationality so i reckon she will be off to the airport sooner rather than later.
In her mind I’m the bad guy in all of this.The funny thing is that my wife is not the jealous type and never tried to stop me seeing my friends which are suppose to be the major ‘ Red flags’. This makes me wonder is she is ‘fully’ narcissist\controlling or not ? Her not having these traits makes me think maybe she is not controlling and not so bad afterall? but i’m hoping thats just my self doubt. Does your partner have these jealous\isolating traits?
My criticisms are mainly domestic ones. She just cant help herself even though, like your partner,she can be messy too but i never say anything because its trivial to me. Other behaviours include her never forgetting old arguments from months ago and throwing certain past incidents in my face. She rarely apologises and would defend\justify her bad behaviours rather than just a simple ‘i’m sorry’. Once she txt me after an argument she started and said something like ‘ I’m sorry but are you sorry too?’
Your partner\situation does sound similar to mine. Do any of the other traits i have mentioned ring true with your partner?
Take care.Hopew to hear from you soon
Hi Joe,
I hope someone who has a better grasp of BPD/NPD can help clear up for you about whether your wife is truly in this category. My partner certainly tried to separate me from my parents and friends so I could devote all my time to her. She used to say things like, ‘Isn’t it a bit strange for a man of your age to want to go see his parents so much?’ (They only live a few miles away, they are elderly and I actually enjoyed seeing them for a few hours no more than once or twice a week but not even that sometimes). Or about my friends, ‘You’re going round to see them again are you….’, I invited her along to get to know my friends but after one visit it was something like, ‘Oh they’re boring, or Tom he talks too much’, also ‘Your mum talks too much, she only talks about herself’, (and this coming from the person who is famous in her own family for talking constantly). Since then I’ve been able to regain some ground by visiting people and following some of my interests. I’m still here because we have a 4 year old child (though I’ve recently got doubts re me being the father). before that what kept me hear was FOG – fear, obligation and guilt.
Does your wife never complain that you are not spending enough time with her or try to make you feel guilty about doing things with friends instead of her? Does she have friends she visits, a social life etc?
In spite of this lack of jealously after reading your posts about the criticisms/bringing up old stuff/ not apologising/forgiving and the defending (sounds like she does it as if her life depended on it – like my partner) it occurred to me because they are very similar to my partners (and lots of other peoples experience)these sorts of behaviours do represent at least an abusive personality type. It is as if these folk are from a different planet where they just don’t understand the power of simply saying sorry and restoring the relationship. Most normal people hate to live with an atmosphere from not settling arguments or from not apologising for being irritable or saying unkind things don’t they? In a reasonably healthy relationship the guilty party either eventually realise that they’ve upset someone or someone points it out. An apology follows and the close relationship is restored. I feel that my partner is so hard hearted because she is so stubborn and seems to live easily with not making up. If we spent a day at home all through the day she’d be nagging, putting me down, complaining and would throw in a few complaints about my family for good measure – then by the evening she’d ask me to rub her feet or give her some affection by which time I was so angry I could hardly bear to be in the same room as her!
I do believe that she could do this because she felt a lot better having unloaded all her anxiety on me and having made me feel bad about myself. To her I would guess that my hurt feelings are incidental.
Is this what is going on in your relationship? I wonder does your wife appear happy/ cheerful after she’s been putting you down? Mine seems to cheer up and can’t understand why I’m so quiet and withdrawn.(moody!)
The fact that you say, “Her not having these traits makes me think maybe she is not controlling and not so bad afterall? but i’m hoping thats just my self doubt.” Seems to say to me that you have a strong feeling that you know there is something very wrong with her behaviour?
I think to apologise is like a massive blow to the fragile self. My partner is similar to yours in that she also likes to get me to apologise to her if she is going to apologise to me so she doesn’t feel like she is losing.
It is difficult to keep yourself feeling positive and resist thinking to yourself, “may be I am the bad guy” It’s hard to explain what is going on but I know I never had any of these issues with other girls I’ve known only in this relationship so I know it mostly isn’t me although I’m not perfect.
I guess what it comes down to is that you are not very happy in your relationship because of your partners abusive way of relating to you. You can drive yourself crazy trying work out what is going on and trying to fix it. If you read around this website and BPD support ones you be convinced by the similarity of peoples experiences that it isn’t you who is the bad guy. It may take a bit of time to really take in that you don’t deserve to be treated abusively. With my partner I knew that if I did exactly as she said there would always be something else that I was failing to do right – there would be no end. This is because it isn’t you it’s them!
Have you tried writing a diary of abusive incidents? It may help you get some perspective. It may even be useful in the future.
What is your next step?
I hope you can get some insightful comments about your situation.
Best Wishes
Christophe
Hi Christophe
It’s interesting that your partner says ‘You’re going round to see them again are you’ with ref to your parents as my wife says that. To be honest I have never thought of it as a way of distancing me from my family but more of a case of her being lazy\selfish and not wanting to come with me. However, she rarely says ‘go on your own’ .Also, whenever i’m on the phone she will say ‘who’s that’
She never complains that i don’t spend time with her but wants me at home never the less.She’ll offer to pick me up from the pub at a certain but i suspect its not to save me taxi fare
Like your partner, there are times when my wife is happy, quite a lot of times actually and its these times i miss and hanker for more of. My problem is the ‘regular’ comments (never really aggressive)about how i am doing things wrong or i am a grot, procrastinator etc..These little comments just add up and kill me over time. Reading these forums i guess she wants me to ‘think’ exactly like her and have the same views. There is no room for intelligant debate. The bottom line is that i just ‘cant be myself’ as i feel my behaviours, opinions,domestic chores etc are being judged. I am in a heap becuase I feel like it is me who at fault and killing this relationship because everything i do, think and say is wrong!
What’s worse is that i feel like i am now the controller. i tell her about how bad behaviour which is what the controller does. I come on this site as act the victim which is what controllers do. I think it’s all ‘her fault’ which is another controller trait. I withdraw from her which is what controllers do.Of course i am not perfect in all of this but I am wondering if her controlling has made me a controller?? Confusing isn’t it!
I think i will propose seeing a councellor. What about you and your partner? How will you move forward?
thanks again
Joe
Hi Joe,
It is not you that is at fault or killing your relationship. I’ve thought through many of the issues you mention in your post because I’ve been there myself. I agree it IS like your wife wants you to be just like her. So long as you do everything the way she does it (say in domestic chores) and have the same tastes and values etc she is going to be happy.
To cut a long story short my partner disliked or even hated so many things about me and the way I do things and what I like (food, music, leisure activities etc) that i daren’t be myself for one minute around her.
This created a puzzle because in the end I had to ask yourself why on earth does she want to be with me when she detests nearly everything about me! After years of trying to fathom this out I came across Dr T’s website which helped me come to the conclusion that my partner was never actually interested in me as a person but merely as a means to an end. She didn’t really want a love relationship of the soul or whatever.
My partner puts domestic issues above the success of the relationship. I often thought that I would do anything for her if she would only show a little respect and gratitude but she finds it impossible to do! She doesn’t think it’s necessary.
May be this is your situation?
My old English teacher said, ..’never marry someone thinking you are going to change them.’ May be this is what your wife thought?
The fact that you don’t feel like you can be yourself seems to say to me that you are not the controller. If you were then surely you would getting her to bend to your will?
When we went to a counsellor the conclusion was that we should split up because we were obviously incompatible but I was sentimental and said I didn’t want split but I regret it now. Since then we have had a child which makes leaving very difficult. My partner has not changes since I met her 12 years ago.
Earlier this year we talked and agreed that we must stop arguing and instead support each other for the sake of the child but all that happened was that I did all the supporting while she carried on criticism and putting me down in front of our child. I would guess that she didn’t change because she basically thought she was right about everything and therefore didn’t need to change!
If you read all of this website you will find a lot of relevant stuff – even about the pitfalls of going to counselling together. May be it’s worth a shot though.
best wishes
Christophe
Hi Christophe
Your last post has given me a lot of food for thought and settled me down a bit. You are correct, I don’t want to make her think like me or be like me but she does vice versa. At the end of the day I ( and maybe you too) are just extensions of our partners in their minds.
Like you I am sticking with her for sentimental reasons and\or the fear of parting. I have a terrible habit of only remembering her good bits, the good times and not the bad bits which is what i should really be concentrating on.
Did your partner take anything on board that the councellor said?
secondly, when the councellor said you should split what did your partner say? Like you say, why would she want to be with you if you are so ‘terrible’? If she had a chance to part from you I wonder why she dodn’t take it?
many thanks again
Joe
PS
She is NOT the jealous type and Doesn’t stop me seeing friends family etc ( supposed to be RED Flags )but i guess she can stil have a disorder or be a controller ??
Hi Dr T
Great site and so much info
This is the current situation with my wife
She criticizes everything i do in the home. I leave the dish cloth in the wrong place after washing up, I always get water everywhere when washin up (maybe i do but kitchen will be so clean when Ive finished) I wash the pots the wrong way. When i’m cooking she buts in and says you ,should do this you should do that. I am clumsy, can’t make the bed properly. We even had a huge row because I put an opened
(lid was on) bottle of pasta sauce in the larder instead of the fridge. She said i cleaned the bathroom very well but missed a bit!
When I said could she please stop criticizing me she said ‘ You make me like this’
and ‘ its because i’ve never lived with anyone as messy as you. I wanted her to say sorry and will try harder to leave me be
Twice I have snapped back at her but she says I need help and will say ‘you need anger management’. If I have an opinion about anyone or anything on TV she says ‘ how can you say that’ and tuts at me. If we have an argument she Never says sorry, I do! If I have 2 beers on a sat night watching a movie and want a 3rd she will say im drinking too much.I just want to chill in my own home but im scared to have a few beers. (If i drank a barrell load i would understand)
However, she can be very nice to me at times and comes across very nice in front of my friends and strangers. I really dont think she is a bad\devious person
Please help I am a nervous wreck! Is she controlling or have a disorder. I am so
confused
many thanks
Joe
Hi Joe,
Some people are just super controlling without having a personality disorder. The need to control may be from some underlying anxiety or maybe that’s how her mother treated her father or both.
The kind of behavior you describe would drive me nuts. First of all, it seems like you’re contributing more than your fair share to the household. Just because you clean/cook differently than she does doesn’t make the way you’re doing it wrong. If someone were doing that to me, I would simply hand them the towel or the marinara jar and say, “Since you know how to clean/cook better than me, why don’t you do it yourself and I’ll go sit down and relax. Otherwise, stop criticizing me.”
Second of all, it’s natural to become angry or frustrated when you’re on the receiving end of stupid, mindless, constant criticism. Next time she tells you that you have anger issues, try to calmly explain that to her and ask her how she would feel if you criticized everything you did.
Third, it’s your house. I assume you paid for it. If you want to have a third beer, it doesn’t make you an alcoholic.
Fourth, I suggest you try to sit down with her and explain how much her constant criticisms bother you. If she dismisses you, tell her the problem is serious enough that you’re considering if you want to be in the marriage. If she still refuses to deal with you and try to change her critical behaviors, then you need to make some decisions such as learning how to tune her criticisms out or if you want to stay in the relationship.
Kind Regards,
Dr Tara
Hi Christophe
sorry to hear you are going through the same bother as me. So frustating\demoralising isn’t it. Wow,12 yrs you have had this hassle. That’s a long time to endure this behaviour. Can i ask why are you still around? Why is your partner still around? as i have have read that once the controller realizes they cant control you they are out of there!!I fear my marriage is over. We are not the same nationality so i reckon she will be off to the airport sooner rather than later.
In her mind I’m the bad guy in all of this.The funny thing is that my wife is not the jealous type and never tried to stop me seeing my friends which are suppose to be the major ‘ Red flags’. This makes me wonder is she is ‘fully’ narcissist\controlling or not ? Her not having these traits makes me think maybe she is not controlling and not so bad afterall? but i’m hoping thats just my self doubt. Does your partner have these jealous\isolating traits?
My criticisms are mainly domestic ones. She just cant help herself even though, like your partner,she can be messy too but i never say anything because its trivial to me. Other behaviours include her never forgetting old arguments from months ago and throwing certain past incidents in my face. She rarely apologises and would defend\justify her bad behaviours rather than just a simple ‘i’m sorry’. Once she txt me after an argument she started and said something like ‘ I’m sorry but are you sorry too?’
Your partner\situation does sound similar to mine. Do any of the other traits i have mentioned ring true with your partner?
Take care.Hopew to hear from you soon
I wantd to share this – it is very insight, written by a healed borderline.
http://www.borderlinepersonality.ca/borderintimpushpull.htm
Just wanted to thank the author for comprehensive and articulate writing on the dynamics faced by victims of the personality disordered. I’d wager anyone who has reckoned with one such relationship — and I include myself, unfortunately, in this — would use all the tools at their disposal to avoid further entanglements, and seek healthy relationships instead.
Trouble is when I start to read some of the behaviours that these people display, and I start to apply it to the people I know, I start to think maybe it is I who is the ‘problem’. Maybe its me who is playing the victim, or the one who is twisted?
I have an ex wife who is BDP, she has custody of the kids and my oldest boy displays signs of narcisisim, very selfish, playing the victim etc. How can I get him to help himself or to recognize that he has a problem?
I am told that narcisists fear ‘ego death’ and this is why they always need to keep asserting their ego. I am of the opinion that ego death is a good thing and if they just allowed it to happen they would be cured?
I know it can be very difficult. Think of it this way: You and your wife are on a sinking ship. The ship is sinking because she keeps drilling holes in the hull. You see what she’s doing and ask her to stop, but she keeps sabotaging the ship. You realize how crazy this is and spot a lifeboat. Do you get in the lifeboat and row away or do you let your wife make you feel guilty for not staying with her on the sinking ship, which she’s responsible for destroying? My advice is to get in the lifeboat and row as if your life depends on it because it does.
Should be…
“Do you get into the lifeboat, knowing that if you let HER in the lifeboat, she will start drilling holes in that too.”
Excellent point, Anonymous Coward. For many of these women, taking down the ship isn’t enough to whet their appetite for destruction. This is why it’s so important to follow a strict No Contact Rule after breaking up if children aren’t involved. If there are kids in the picture, keep communication to a bare minimum and don’t let her anywhere near new aspects of your life and new relationships you’re trying to cultivate because she will try to poison them if she can.
Hi Dr Tara
Many many thanks to you and your website. What a tremendous resource you are providing. It’s been about a year now since I first started thinking that I might be involved (engaged) to a woman with an abusive personality. I’ve been trying to read as much as I could, and yours is the first site I’ve found addressing abuse of men and labeling it as such. I’ve read many books and looked at many websites and all have been geared toward abuse of women BY men. I realize that statistics swing in that direction but it didn’t do much to make me feel as though I had a legitimate problem. Especially when the sites went so far as to soften abusers motives and blame it on ‘The Patriarchy.’
I grew up as a child of the 70s, the decade of ERA and women’s rights. I was/am a huge supporter of equality and it was always my perception that the worst thing you could call someone was a chauvenist (how’s that for a dated term). In fact it’s still my sister’s favorite name to call our dad since she feels he doesn’t care about anything that has to do with women. It’s actually a mislabel since he’s not really interested in anything that doesn’t relate directly to himself – male or female. Narcissist maybe? I appreciated your comment in one of your blogs that the pendulum has swung in the other direction and it was time to recognize that women could be sexist/abusers too (I’m paraphrasing). This is a long-way-round of saying how much of a balancing you have helped me achieve. I’m not sure how clear I’m being. Maybe I’ll just stick with THANK YOU!
That being said, I am one of those on the cusp of leaving a relationship I’ve been invested in for 5 years – engaged for 3. I take the quizzes, check the boxes, and recognize the signs. I relate to the stories of name-calling, double standards, belittling, and confusion, and applaud the people who have made the break because it’s been so hard for me. Sometimes I think I move in geologic time. So my question would be this:
HOW to do it?
The literal ‘how’ part. What words to say, what kind of example to follow. Being the child of divorce, I think I got hard-wired early on that victims were the good people (my mom) and leavers were the bad people (my dad). And I don’t want to be the bad person. My examples of break-ups were ugly, petty, brutal, protracted things. And I gotta admit the animated video of the guy breaking up with his BPD/NPD wife/girlfriend did not instill me with confidence. If you or any of the readers can write and make suggestions or share their experiences about how they went about it, I would really appreciate it. I’d like to grow up and handle this like an adult. And I could sure use some advice.
And thanks again.
Hi Kent,
Thanks for the positive feedback re: my site. I appreciate it.
How do you leave an abusive relationship? You just have to make your mind up and do it. You need to brace yourself for overt and covert manipulations of guilt, sympathy, shame, obligation and accusations. Wanting to live free of abuse is nothing to feel guilty about—in fact, your wife should feel guilty for the way she’s treated you. Wanting a life free of abuse is the healthy and sane choice.
Most importantly, don’t succumb to your own feelings of guilt re: the buttons your family installed at an early age about “leavers” and “victims.” More than likely, you’re soon to be ex recognized these issues within you, which made you an easy target for her. If you feel bad about leaving her, I encourage you to consider if your wife has ever once felt true remorse for any of the hurtful things she’s said and done to you. Even when these women express remorse and cry, it’s typically a ploy to shift the power back to them by making you feel guilty and sorry for them. Your responsibility is to yourself; not your wife. Whether she behaves like it or not, she is an adult; not your dependent child. She is responsible for herself, her choices and behaviors.
I also encourage you to seek support through the break up process. Reconnect with friends and family who will be supportive of your decision. Find a psychologist (who your thoroughly screen first to surmise his or her ability to effectively work on these issues without bias). If you can’t find someone to work with locally, I offer consultation via phone/Skype. Remind yourself everyday that you’re making the healthy choice. When you start to feel like the bad guy, write down all the reasons remaining in this relationship is harming you.
I know it can be very difficult. Think of it this way: You and your wife are on a sinking ship. The ship is sinking because she keeps drilling holes in the hull. You see what she’s doing and ask her to stop, but she keeps sabotaging the ship. You realize how crazy this is and spot a lifeboat. Do you get in the lifeboat and row away or do you let your wife make you feel guilty for not staying with her on the sinking ship, which she’s responsible for destroying? My advice is to get in the lifeboat and row as if your life depends on it because it does.
Kind Regards,
Dr Tara
Hi Dr T
What I’m asking for are recommendations on actually doing the breakup. The how, the where, the what to say. I can’t wrap my head around it. It sounds like it should be so simple now that I’ve come to the realization, but it totally fogs my brain when I try to figure an ‘out’ strategy. I try to keep my head straight when we do fight, but I can’t seem to make it stick. And we don’t fight ALL the time, nor is she controlling and demeaning ALL the time. So I’m on edge waiting for the other shoe to drop or the other landmine to go off, while another part of me is saying ‘she’s not so bad.’ I keep thinking the ‘next fight’ will be the clincher, the explosion that will blow me out of my situation, but it isn’t. And the thought of sitting down at the table and announcing my intentions is terrifying. There are no kids and we aren’t married, so in that sense it’s clean. But leaving a note and just going seems cowardly to me. Even though i know that if I tried to be up front about it, she would coerce me one way or another, and by the time we were done, I’d be right back where I started. Help Dr T. I need some practical step by step advice.
Leaving a note would be cowardly if she was a normal person you just didn’t want to be with any more. She’s not normal – she’s abusive.
With an abusive personality, I don’t think it is cowardly to get your stuff and leave while she’s out. It will probably feel low and crappy, but consider that non-physical abusers can become dangerous, even murderous, when they’re left.
Check this page for some more advice: http://heart-2-heart.ca/men/page11.html
Hi Kent,
1. You are not a coward. It’s foolish to be honest and above board with people who will twist your words and try to hurt you.
True story: When I was in grad school I had a psycho landlord. He would go into my apt while I was at work (without my permission—this is illegal, btw) and rummage through my drawers. He even left a post-it note on one of my undergarments (pretty sure this was sexual harassment). I didn’t have the money to break my lease, lose my security deposit and come up with another first, last and new security deposit for a new apt. Then the plumbing started to go. The railing on the stairway pulled off in my hands and I almost fell down a flight of stairs. There was exposed wiring because he tried to make a repair and messed it up. The steel knobs cracked off the sink and I had to use a wrench to run the water.
After 6 weeks of imploring him to make the repairs—I even reported him to the local housing authority to no avail—I stopped paying rent ($1400/month). He then served me with eviction papers. We went to court and he finally hired professionals to make the repairs and offered to let me renew my lease (as if he was doing me a favor!) I considered renewing for a moment because it was going to be very difficult to scrape up the money to pay movers and the money needed to secure a new apt. However, he wanted me to sign a new lease stating he could enter the apt at will without prior notification whenever he wanted (illegal) and that he could come in person to collect the rent from me as opposed to mailing it (also illegal). I decided even though it would be a financial hardship that I needed to get out.
When I declined his gracious offer, he started threatening me that he was going to show up with the sheriff on the day I moved out to make sure I didn’t damage anything (mind you, I put fresh paint on the walls and made other improvements to the apt out of my own pocket to make it more habitable while he was the one letting the place fall down around me). I told my mother I was going to vacate the premises two days prior to the 31st without telling him and she lectured me about how that wasn’t fair of me, etc. I told her that I didn’t owe that creep anything and I most certainly was NOT going to tell him my plans to vacate early so that he could continue to harass me.
Moral of the story: Do whatever you need to do to protect yourself. She doesn’t treat you fairly, so why do you owe her a gentle, sit down and let’s discuss things break-up. You know she’s not capable of it. Leave a note. Send her an email. These women are at their worst and most manipulative when you decide to end the relationship. They alternate between tear-filled guilt trips and seething vengeance. If she was the one who wanted to end the relationship do you think she’d be sweating over how to do it? It’d be done cruelly, coldly and without a second thought about your feelings.
2. Don’t wait. Letting this drag on only gives her more time to confuse and weaken you and, heaven forbid, “accidentally” get pregnant and then you’re really screwed.
3. Just do it. Don’t think about it. Just take a deep breath and pull the pin. However, prepare in advance. Quietly remove any valued possessions out of the apt and store it with your family or a friend. If you have joint accounts, get all of the records and then withdraw your share (trust me, if you don’t do this preemptively, she’ll wipe you out and you won’t have a legal leg to stand on). The longer you sweat and angst over this, the more difficult and scary you’re making it in your mind. If you do break up with her face-to-face, have a third party present if possible in case she dials 911 and claims abuse. If you can’t have another person with you, invest in a small digital tape recorder so you have a record if she loses it and then calls the cops. The police arrest first and ask questions later, so an ounce of prevention now will save you a lot in court costs later.
Hope this helps,
Dr Tara
Thanks Dr T & Mr E (together they fight crime)
I appreciate the advice wholeheartedly. I will begin my exodus by moving out the things I can without being obvious. Funny, the thought of an ‘accidental pregnancy’ has crossed my mind as well.
When I read the posts and all the good advice, it makes me want to write about my experiences and all the absurd situations and belligerent behavior I’ve experienced over the years. But when I think about it, I get embarrassed for the degree of behavior I’ve put up with. I haven’t even been able to tell friends or family the full extent because I feel ashamed of myself and ‘less than a man’ for caving in to it.
Our relationship started out with her as the ‘other woman’ whom I eventually did leave my girlfriend for. This aspect of us has never been forgotten and comes up frequently to prove how bad I am/was and how good she is for putting up with that – because she loves me. This is just an example of the leverage she takes in our exchanges. And it does work to make me feel guilty.
The leaving a note scenario looks and sounds better and better.
Many thanks.
Kent,
Hi buddy. I am on the other side of the cusp as you are.. I was married to, what I beleive was a BPD woman for five years.. I decided four months ago to leave and file for a divorce. Every day since then I have second guessed my decision. I know deep down inside that I couldn’t have lived like that for the rest of my life. I guess with that being said, if I had to go back and do it all over again. I would make the same decision. My stbxw checks off on almost EVERY topic that Dr. Tara touches on. She is by far the meanest, crulest, controlling person I have ever met in my life, but for some horrible reason I miss her. I guess I miss what I thought a wife would be instead of what my wife actually was. It kills me knowing that she has gone on with her life and I’m sitting her in “No mans land”. I guess my only advice to you is that you need to do what would make you happy. My stbxw threw hundreds of red flags up at me prior to us being engaged or married. I believed that if I would marry her that she would know that I loved her and all her jealousy, insecurities and controlling ways would go away. Upon marrying her they got 1000x’s worse. She then told me “There is no way that I’m going to have a husband who cheats on me”. Thats what I had to deal with until I had enough and left.. Dr. Tara gave a great example with the sinking ship.. My advice to you brotha, is jump in the life boat and row as fast as you can. Good luck
Hi Jeff,
yes the annoying thing is that for some bizarre reason you kinda miss the crazy woman who was in your life. I have let the kindest, sweetest girlfriends go in my life without too much remorse, yet still feel strangely wistful about my BPD/NOD ex girlfriend! Yet she was the most unsuitable, incompatible, compassionless girlfriend i have even had. Its weird. But still your brain tells you its definately for the best, without doubt, to have them out of your life and be with a normal girl instead.
Some victims end up being the victims because a little part of them gets addicted to the “drama”…there is also the obvious issue that there were “good times” interspersed throughout the relationship, and given these were “rare occasions of calm”, they seem all the more heightened.
Kent:
I left my BPD fiancee after having documented all the fights we were having…at one point, there were at least 1 to 2 huge blowups a week, with one a month being violent or of serious emotional abuse that was completely unprovoked…after seeing a therapist who told me to leave, I went home that day, calmly confronted her and told her for my own health and wellbeing that I had to leave the relationship. Once you call them on their behavior, and single out every fight and the frequency of it and the irrationality of it all, she will start to unravel and try anything to keep you including offering to go to therapy. The best way to lay it out to her is that you are “ill” from all the fighting, that the relationship is obviously not a healthy one and need to heal on your own…I told her to move out the next day and took my ring back. Over the next few days, she morphed from trying to be understanding and compassionate to threatening me over the phone, being verbally abusive and stealing some of my personal effects. I had to buy her out of all our joint effects to just get her out of my life…the point being, that you have to just do it – and don’t keep any lines of communication open between the two of you as she’ll just use it as a way to get back to you…cutting off the communication cuts her power.
Although I am still healing, I thank the Lord everyday that I left her before it was too late…you will be better off!!! Abuse is NEVER ok
Hello chico,
I am so glad for you that you saw her evil ways before it was too late & you were married & really felt trapped. I can tell you are not only a kind heart but someone who has confidence & love for yourself that this woman could not destroy within you. You not only had the courage to break off an engagement & also go no contact which many men seem to struggle with, but you also took the information here & from your therapist for face value & realized her mental illness will never go away(as long as she is content abusing & gets the reactions she desires).
I am so glad my one of my previos posts helped you as you mentioned on another page today. How these types of people sweep into your life & make a mess of it, is almost like a hurricane hits. At first it is exhilarating & exciting & then nothing but disaster & wreckage when it is over. It will take awhile to fully regain your sense of self once the storm has settled & you move on & repair the emotional damage. I still struggle myself 2 yrs later & I am still searching for a true & honest love to come into my life. Fully trusting people again is never going to be easy for me now that I have encountered BPD & NPD types, but b/c I know I love purely & honestly, I have faith there are others out there like myself that only want good for others & themselves, as well. If you have a healthy love for yourself & create boundaries to protect yourself from damaging BPD & NPD people then once you have learned about these personality disorders, it is much easier to unmask them early on. I still have people like these bopping into my present life & Thanks to the great information on this site, I find the strength each time to bop them right out of my life too! Abuse is NEVER, ok, like you said & it is certainly not the love God intended people to share with one another. The way these BPD & NPD people show love(if they even have the capability of it) is sick, perverse & demented. I do not have any pity for them or their childish actions in any way regardless of their terrible pasts. My past was not easy either, but I do not go around abusing kind hearts. Much Luck, Health & Happiness to you, chico. I can tell like myself, you will never take your freedom for granted & hearing your story of escape & no contact, will help so many others that are still struggling & finding pity for these evil doers. They will NEVER change unless they want to, but we can change the way they affect us by ridding of their drama & finding someone worthy of a kind & honest heart.
Hi Chico,
You make a very good point:
there is also the obvious issue that there were “good times” interspersed throughout the relationship, and given these were “rare occasions of calm”, they seem all the more heightened.
The “good” times seems so good because the disparity between good and bad is so immense. Meaning: Were the good times really as good as you remember—which is why so many men find it so hard to let go of these women—or did they only seem so good compare to the living hell she is to deal with most of the time.
For example, let’s say you had to eat at McDonald’s for every email, everyday for 90 days. By day 91, dinner at Applebee’s would seem like an exquisite gastronomical delight when in reality, it’s just more pre-prepared garbage from Sysco.
Something to think about when men and women can’t forget “the good times.”
Kind Regards,
Dr Tara